Debate: Issac Bourne vs Ashley Haworth Roberts

[IssacBourne]

Now let's do some math.

There are 8.7 million species on this planet. There have been around 250,000 fossils found. That is less than 3% of the story and evidence. Which brings up a few questions and realizations.

1) How does a theory become a true proven fact with less than 3% of the evidence?
2) How does a theory become a scientific one with less than 3% of the evidence?
3) What was the 123 criteria that allowed a theory become become a scientific one with less that 3% of the evidence?
4) And is 3% of the evidence "mountains of evidence" you speak of? I don't think so.

Observable evolution in action.

Out of all the evolution that is claimed to have happened, and was supposedly recorded in the fossil record. How much of it is actually observable without a time machine? Less then 1%. Which means the same question above apply as to why less than 1% observable equals all the things claimed about it?

[Roger Stanyard]

Now let's do some math.

There are 8.7 million species on this planet. There have been around 250,000 fossils found. That is less than 3% of the story and evidence. Which brings up a few questions and realizations.

1) How does a theory become a true proven fact with less than 3% of the evidence?
2) How does a theory become a scientific one with less than 3% of the evidence?
3) What was the 123 criteria that allowed a theory become become a scientific one with less that 3% of the evidence?
4) And is 3% of the evidence "mountains of evidence" you speak of? I don't think so.

Observable evolution in action.

Out of all the evolution that is claimed to have happened, and was supposedly recorded in the fossil record. How much of it is actually observable without a time machine? Less then 1%. Which means the same question above apply as to why less than 1% observable equals all the things claimed about it?

Speciation is an onserved fact. The theory of evolution is a scientific explanation. no one claims it to be a fact.

[Brian Jordan]

Never mind our asking Ashley's permission to assist him with a debate, how about a new member on his first posting asking for permission to start a debate? We do not, after all, have a debate section.
Nor is this forum intended as a vehicle for creationists to deliver long, univited articles.
I am accordingly moving this thread to Conversations with Creationists where Ashley is free to continue it and everbody else is free to ignore it.
Oh, and you might like to spell his name correctly in future.
EDIT to add:
In transferring this thread I accidentally deleted Issac's first, lengthy illustrated post. Sorry about that, he's welcome to re-post it here.

[IssacBourne]

Never mind. I can tell by your attitude and yous so called mistaken delete of my post that all your are going to do is give me trouble, Everyone warned me I should have listened. I don't have a copy of that post neither am I going to retype trying to remember what I said. You deleted it on purpose and that is exactly what I am going to tell everyone.

[Brian Jordan]

Never mind. I can tell by your attitude and yous so called mistaken delete of my post that all your are going to do is give me trouble, Everyone warned me I should have listened. I don't have a copy of that post neither am I going to retype trying to remember what I said. You deleted it on purpose and that is exactly what I am going to tell everyone.

You can tell people what you like. I shall tell you exactly what happened. I moved your thread to this sub-forum where it belonged. In doing so I neglected to un-tick the "leave a shadow" box and as a result the first three posts in the the thread remained in the Free for All subforum. I started to delete these posts - which I expected to remain visible in CwC - and found that there was in fact only one instance of the posts on the forum and that I had deleted your main post. I'm sorry about that, it was not my intention, but I am surprised that as an experienced site owner and forum admin you did not keep a copy of such a long, elaborately illustrated post.
While we are clearing things up, I must mention your claims on your own site that we have been blocking attempted registrations by you and other of Ashley's adversaries. This is not true - I would not even know how to block applications to register on the forum before they occurred. Any filtering is done once potential members have registered and admins have been notified by email and this is done only to keep spammers at bay. Your registrationation was activated as soon we received the email.

[BranchNeil7]

Not surprising Issac Bourne continues his "undefeated" 100% FAILURE RATE in his attempts at (so-called) "debates".

[Steve660]

There are 8.7 million species on this planet. There have been around 250,000 fossils found. That is less than 3% of the story and evidence....

What an obvious straw man! Most of the evidence for evolution comes from sources other than fossils. In fact even if fossils did not exist at all, not a single one, the evidence for evolution would still be overwhelming. So it is a nonsense to make a straight 1:1 correlation between the % of things fossilised and the % of evidence for evolution (assuming one can even quantify the amount of evidence).

Last time I looked it was around 300,000 fossil species (don't have source to hand, sorry), but Bourne's argument is a useful response to the gaps in the fossil record argument. As the total number of species that have ever lived is probably one or two orders of magnitude greater than the number currently alive, the % preserved as fossils is even tinier than 3%. So complaining about gaps in the fossil record is like having half a dozen pieces from a 10,000 piece jigsaw and complaining that because none of them join to each other there cannot be an overall picture.

[a_haworthroberts]

"You deleted it on purpose and that is exactly what I am going to tell everyone."

IF Bourne was sincere he would at least acknowledge Brian's subsequent explanation of what occurred.

But instead he runs away (if he ran away quick enough he might not have seen Steve's factual rebuttal).

And before running, over on the main thread at 'Conversations' (though shortly before Brian's explanation) Bourne rather emotively alleged: "They deleted posts, came at me with a sarcastic attitude."

Bourne also wrote at 'Conversations':
"I thought you had everything set up to debate here." I suggest you RE-READ my words. I told you no lies. I thought informal debates could happen on the forum - though probably at the 'Conversations with Creationists' section. AND BRIAN HAS NOT SAID THAT THEY CANNOT.

This thread is OPEN. Bourne has NOT been banned. But he has thrown something of a hissy fit and is now dishonestly pretending on his 'YEC Headquarters' blog (quoted by me just now in the other 'Conversations' thread) that I have total control of this forum and that any unpleasant experience he has had here is MY fault. What's that - a young earth creationist unable to accept what REALLY occurred?


PS A wide circulation email has just been sent - copied to Bourne.

PPS I now see - at 1.16 am on 3.1.15 and just after sending my email - that Bourne HAS in fact acknowledged on his facebook page Brian's post at 3.15 pm above (when I looked earlier I could not see any such acknowledgement). However, all Bourne writes is "Ah yes, the attempted apology. After everything said and done. The admin can;t do this in public would not want your buds to see it. Showing a YEC mercy has to be done in private. Time stamp is after the fact not before. And since all things happened in the public part the apology should have been in public as well. ~ Issac".
Bourne must be pretty thick if he thinks Brian's post at 3.15 pm was purely 'private'. His response is an insincere one. If he was confident in his views he would put the events of 2 January behind him and continue debating. That's what 'evolutionists' tend to do if they go to YEC forums or pages. (He may also have received a private apology from Brian for all I know, but the BCSE forum post by Brian at 3.15 pm - after Bourne said that he was going to accuse Brian of lying to him - was PUBLIC. In fact I've just seen that it was Brian's community forum post of 6.41 am on 2 January!) As I wrote in my email a few minutes' ago: "Why do online young Earth creationists assume that everybody else is stupid? Is it because they find that their own followers frequently are?"

[a_haworthroberts]

https://www.facebook.com/EvolutionIsALie
"And so the attacks begin. The usual I'm a liar and Haworth the only truth teller stories have started. I can;t say it was not expected. But I will say thanks for all the fee advertisement this ruckus you guts caused will bring me, my ministry here and website. My Google Ranking will go up and for the next 6 months I will probably have the first page in any Google search where yec is used as the search parameter.
You see there is always a positive side to the negativity." (Bourne whining triumphantly on his facebook within the last half hour)

OK - since you are gagging for it, Bourne. You ARE a Liar.

As my email shows though I did not actually use the 'l' word:
"All too typical young earth creationist behaviour.
Issac Bourne (NB despite the blog date his words below were written on 2 January):
http://www.yecheadquarters.org/?p=1754
"Debate was basically over before it even started. According to one of the admins there I did not have permission to debate there or start a debate there. And the section that I had posted in they said was the wrong section. Well Ashley invited me so what was one to think? It’s not like he was new there so if he needed to ask he should have. And then the administrator says: On that lengthy post you made, I accidentally deleted it while trying to move it. One that I did not have a copy of. I was not about to retype it so I told him forget it.
I was warned about debating there by more than one person I should have listened. But here the admins post.
[Screenshot - of FIRST Brian Jordan 2.1.15 post at 11.31 am ONLY.]
These pics below are of where Me and others already had our names banned before we got there. Which they claimed they had no knowledge of. When it says I use forbidden characters, it means the name was manually blocked on purpose. I used to run forums, design them, and even wrote some code. So I know how they work. Now if Ashley does his usual thing he will call me a liar in all this because it’s his favorite word to use. No problem. This will be the last time I have any dealings with him or that forum."
Bourne again (NB nothing to do with ABBA or a Waterloo):
https://www.facebook.com/EvolutionIsALie
"Completion of the debate between Ashley and me ended with one of the admins first telling I had to have permission to start a debate. Ashley invited me there one would think he already told them. And when the section I posted in said debate free for all. Go figure. Then he deletes a post I spent a lot of time preparing while on the forum. I did not expect anyone to delete it so I have no copy.
So I have ended the debate. I'm not putting up with being treated that way. Ashley had quit responding anyhow to my last post in another thread. Here is the screen shot of what the admin said. So the 10 atheists to 1 creationist debate is over because my starting debate question was more than they could handle. They did not even try. ~ Issac"
So - according to Bourne - the debate he wanted with members of the BCSE community forum is 'over'.
But the reason it is over, if indeed it is, is because HE HAS RUN AWAY. That is the ONLY reason.
Please see here and here if you do not believe me!
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3606&p=50020#p50020
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3607&p=50021#p50021
NB I did NOT 'quit' as he suggested early on 2 January. Rather I simply wanted New Year's Day as a day off from the internet (like Christmas Day). I have now addressed all of Bourne's recent posts. But I predict that he will almost certainly not return to address anything I've said tonight. He has fled.
Why do online young Earth creationists assume that everybody else is stupid? Is it because they find that their own followers frequently are?"

My theory is that Liars sometimes BECOME YECs. Rather than YEC makes previously truthful people and previously truthful Christians become Liars (but I could be wrong about that).

PS HATE-FILLED EVIL LIAR SORENSEN IS LYING AGAIN - IS ANYBODY SURPRISED?
"Haywire is pulling his usual "victory is mine" nonsense, as to be expected. Naturally, they're doing ad hominems and other fallacies, and using the font of libel, (ir)Rational Wiki, to support their claims."

Go To Hell Sorensen.

If victory is 'mine' it's only because Bourne needlessly ran away (and is free to return at any time).

But Sorensen is so guilt-ridden about his pathological lying on full public display that he dares not come here at all because he knows he would get 'slaughtered'.

Why won't you answer my recent questions, Bob? Are you afraid?

Yes - afraid of being proven a Lying Fraud by your OWN words as well as everyone else's.

If you are debating a hardline young earth creationist remember you are in conversation with somebody who has no compunction whatever about lying (other people lie too of course but most of them don't claim to be biblical Christians).

[Brian Jordan]

PPS I now see - at 1.16 am on 3.1.15 and just after sending my email - that Bourne HAS in fact acknowledged on his facebook page Brian's post at 3.15 pm above (when I looked earlier I could not see any such acknowledgement). However, all Bourne writes is "Ah yes, the attempted apology. After everything said and done. The admin can;t do this in public would not want your buds to see it. Showing a YEC mercy has to be done in private. Time stamp is after the fact not before. And since all things happened in the public part the apology should have been in public as well. ~ Issac".
Bourne must be pretty thick if he thinks Brian's post at 3.15 pm was purely 'private'. His response is an insincere one. If he was confident in his views he would put the events of 2 January behind him and continue debating. That's what 'evolutionists' tend to do if they go to YEC forums or pages. (He may also have received a private apology from Brian for all I know, but the BCSE forum post by Brian at 3.15 pm - after Bourne said that he was going to accuse Brian of lying to him - was PUBLIC. In fact I've just seen that it was Brian's community forum post of 6.41 am on 2 January!) As I wrote in my email a few minutes' ago: "Why do online young Earth creationists assume that everybody else is stupid? Is it because they find that their own followers frequently are?"

Just to put the record straight, as soon as I realised my mistake I pm'd Bourne to apologise and invite him to repost. This was before I repeated the message on the forum. I never got a reply.
ETA: my pm to Bourne is timed as 12:41pm. I cannot check the time of the edit to my original post of 12:31 in which I announced my mistaken deletion,