Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

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Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:27 am

Creationist David Shormann Fails to Stop Atheists From Holding Evolution Discussion at Houston Museum

By Jonathan Vankin, Sun, August 04, 2013

An advocate of creationism who recently sat on the Texas State Board of Education panel that decided which science textbooks to use in Texas schools has attempted to stop the Houston Museum of Natural Science from offering rental space to area atheist and humanist groups to discuss the scientific basis for evolution.

David Shormann, a Houston-area author who holds a Ph.D. in aquatic science and has self-published a book dedicated to the thesis that evolution is a “lie,” called the Houston Atheists group “religiously intolerant” and condemned what he termed the group’s “bigotry” in demanding that the museum refuse to rent space to the group for today’s event, “Answers In Science: What On Earth Do We Know?”
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/creationist-david-shormann-fails-stop-atheists-holding-evolution-discussion-houston#
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Re: Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby a_haworthroberts » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:08 pm

I did post about the antics of Shormann at one of the other live threads the other day.
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Re: Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:10 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
Creationist David Shormann Fails to Stop Atheists From Holding Evolution Discussion at Houston Museum

By Jonathan Vankin, Sun, August 04, 2013

An advocate of creationism who recently sat on the Texas State Board of Education panel that decided which science textbooks to use in Texas schools has attempted to stop the Houston Museum of Natural Science from offering rental space to area atheist and humanist groups to discuss the scientific basis for evolution.

David Shormann, a Houston-area author who holds a Ph.D. in aquatic science and has self-published a book dedicated to the thesis that evolution is a “lie,” called the Houston Atheists group “religiously intolerant” and condemned what he termed the group’s “bigotry” in demanding that the museum refuse to rent space to the group for today’s event, “Answers In Science: What On Earth Do We Know?”
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/creationist-david-shormann-fails-stop-atheists-holding-evolution-discussion-houston#


Unfortunately Brian, this is an Atheist/Humanist event and no Christian groups appear to have been involved. Pro science really needs to include theists and non theists, otherwise the YECs will cry "foul". No point in facilitating the Ham/Comfort show with an "evolution vs God" situation.
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Re: Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby cathy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:45 am

Unfortunately Brian, this is an Atheist/Humanist event and no Christian groups appear to have been involved. Pro science really needs to include theists and non theists, otherwise the YECs will cry "foul". No point in facilitating the Ham/Comfort show with an "evolution vs God" situation.

Peter that is America, creationists have already destroyed Christianity's scientific credibility, well actually just its credibility full stop. Atheists/humanists aren't the problem, tho they are pro science/anti creationism. Christianity is riddled with creationists over there or apologists for them who are too soft so I can't blame anyone for being suspicious - especially in Houston.

Plus there also seems to be a fierce anti theist movement now, and they have exploited creationism! Why else do you think creationists are so able and willing to quote Dawkins so freely?

It is creationists that strove to drag Christianity into being anti science - you can't blame atheists/humanists for that. The people best placed to stop them were the clever normal believers. But they didn't until even start until it was too late. If creationism started in the 60s so should the move to distance Christianity from it! Pro science won't include theists there untill they join the fight far more fiercely and start pointing some of that out.

But you now have the additional problem of fierce anti theists in the atheist movements that know they have to push them out before they get a chance.

I think the UK should learn from their mistakes - and quickly. Christianity over there did far too little far too late to distance itself from them - they gave creationists and their loony pals an inch and they took over. Now the few intelligent US Christians are playing catch up but already, as far as I can see, most intelligent people have deserted in droves and religion there has become largely the preserve of the thick as mud and the con artists.

Because it is so entrenched there, fighting it will take too long and be in tiny steps to reverse that trend (as I think I've heard Michael say you can only tackle it slowly like conquering the age of the Earth problem first and so on - but clever people will leave in droves long before that is achievable). Believe me, none of the Christians here - not you not Michael or Jon or anyone, would be Christians if Ken Ham, Comfort and co had been it's representatives and literal Genesis its focus!!! You are all too bright.

That hasn't happened here YET! But Dawkins is using creationism for all he is worth and who would blame him really. He still has to admit that there are very intelligent believers here and his arguments about UK Christians (and many Muslims and Catholics) are pretty crap and totally lacking in coherence and consistency! ~They are so wide of any mark that nobody recognises his stereotypes - even he has had to admit that. The 'religion is stupid sperstition and anti science' doesn't work here - YET. The cultures are still too different.

In America he has a much easier ride, his arguments are persuasive there because they are spot on! Linking religion to creationism and anti science has been like taking candy from a baby. Only an idiot wouldn't be able to see through creationism and the other con artists running it. Only and idiot couldn't see how dangerous it is to civilisation to discredit science so totally.

Creationism moving to the UK is a gift for him. Better than the child abuse scandal in the RCC by miles. There he is right, you would have to be stupid to buy it. Here he still has the far harder task of Christians like you and Michael saying creationism is nonsense. But they are trying hard to infiltrate churches here and succeeding!!!

You are too few and far between. Most Christians may not be creationists but they are far to considerate to them. There is far too much of the 'well it doesn't matter what you believe about Genesis' and we're all in this together here. The creationists aren't taking that line - they're taking over the whole thing. Even as an atheist I would hate to see what has become of Christianity in America happen here, but you can't blame people for becoming atheists after seeing that. Nor for becoming hard line anti theists when you see places like Tennesee still getting creationism into schools.

Over here it is still creationism v science. But unless Christianity and Islam distance themselves from it far more vigourously it will become religion v science here as well. Because whether you like it or not you are under a two pronged attack. On one side creationists on the other their firmest allies - the hard line anti theists like Dawkins.

Bishop Welby stood up to Wonga but he hasn't stand up to creationists as publicly. NOr does the evangelical alliance with its 'ooh lets present both sides' nonsense. Because there aren't two sides there is truth and lies! Ditching creationism is the easiest moral judgement religion could make - it even has a commandment devoted to it. But it gets an occasional article in the broadsheets and the odd tv programme. No Wonga style headlines!

They should stand up firmly and say there is no such thing as creation 'science' there aren't two views and expose the liars as liars. Those who believe in a literal Genesis must do so honestly be saying clearly they reject science for religious reasons and leave the sane people to believe in peace and without ridicule by association!!! Otherwise whats happened in Houston will happen here to.
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Re: Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:38 am

Indeed Cathy, I wholeheartedly agree with regard to the church.

However, I just feel that a scientific establishment such as a museum shouldn't be associating itself either with Atheism or Humanism, both of which are philosophical concepts. It gives the wrong impression of what science is. Science takes no position on matters such as this.

Personally speaking, I think the museum handled the matter clumsily.

How much do you want to bet something will appear on Ham's blog about museums indoctrinating children with Atheism and secular Humanism ? Science and the pro scientific establishment really need to tread very carefully indeed.
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Re: Creationist tries to ban "intolerant" evolution event

Postby cathy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Personally speaking, I think the museum handled the matter clumsily.

How much do you want to bet something will appear on Ham's blog about museums indoctrinating children with Atheism and secular Humanism ? Science and the pro scientific establishment really need to tread very carefully indeed.

I would agree, but I now think that battle is lost in the states. Ken Ham and his predecessors have worked hard to make creationism and Christianity one and the same much to the joy of the anti theists. It IS now Christianity with creationism and science with atheism. They've left their fight back very late!! Plus this is Houston - I'd guess you'd be hard pressed to find many real non creationist Christians there.

The same thing needs to be stopped here before it takes hold. Welby needs to make a Wonga style high profile statement condemning creationists as out and out liars. The EA needs to do the same and stop giving them credibility. Whilst they don't you cannot blame science for being wary and the anti theists would be mad not to use it. And I dislike the anti theists probably as much as you.

The only disagreements you ever get to see from Christians are esoteric articles in broadsheet papers or the ocassional appearance on the Big Questions - where Nicky Campbell usually handles it perfectly. The ones fighting are brilliant but they need a far higher profile!!! Too many think they're harmless.

I don't know how you can achieve that - only that it needs to be achieved from within the church. Dawkins is waiting in the wings - at the moment he is on the back foot re UK Christians having to admit to there being intelligent, non creationist ones and scientific ones. BUT you won't keep those sorts of Christians in the next generation unless you get rid of creationism or stem its growth. It is toxic!
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