Creationism in Context

[Dagsannr]

If things progress at the rate they are in the USA I can see the Republican party splitting down ideological lines. Not all of them are Tea Party fundamentalists, quite a substantial number of them are financial conservatives and libertarians who stick to the Republican party line as it encourages big business and minimal government intervention.
Push comes to shove, once the big-money backers realise that the christian right is making their party unelectable in the states that matter, they'll either push the hardliner fundies out, or change party policy to endorse same-sex marriage and climate change and the fundies will leave themselves.
That splits the conservative vote right down the middle and the Democrats will walk all over them - and that's the only reason why the Republicans havn't split yet.

[Peter Henderson]

If things progress at the rate they are in the USA I can see the Republican party splitting down ideological lines. Not all of them are Tea Party fundamentalists, quite a substantial number of them are financial conservatives and libertarians who stick to the Republican party line as it encourages big business and minimal government intervention.
Push comes to shove, once the big-money backers realise that the christian right is making their party unelectable in the states that matter, they'll either push the hardliner fundies out, or change party policy to endorse same-sex marriage and climate change and the fundies will leave themselves.
That splits the conservative vote right down the middle and the Democrats will walk all over them - and that's the only reason why the Republicans havn't split yet.

I seem to remember, in Ken Miller's talk from Case Western University in the Q & A session at the end, that he stated they had as many problems (if not more) with the Democrats than with the Republicans when it came to a rejection of evolution.

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

I seem to remember, in Ken Miller's talk from Case Western University in the Q & A session at the end, that he stated they had as many problems (if not more) with the Democrats than with the Republicans when it came to a rejection of evolution.

Then Ken Miller was wrong. Grossly wrong. Since the polling data are widely available, I suspect your recollection was wrong.

[Peter Henderson]

I seem to remember, in Ken Miller's talk from Case Western University in the Q & A session at the end, that he stated they had as many problems (if not more) with the Democrats than with the Republicans when it came to a rejection of evolution.

Then Ken Miller was wrong. Grossly wrong. Since the polling data are widely available, I suspect your recollection was wrong.

It was this talk Gary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohd5uqzlwsU

and the comments are in the Q&A session at the end.

I think, if I remember correctly, he may have said "some" Democrats rather than "Democrats", which narrows it down. I think his point was that on occasions, the Democrats weren't necessarily any better than Republicans.

[Roger Stanyard]

That splits the conservative vote right down the middle and the Democrats will walk all over them - and that's the only reason why the Republicans havn't split yet.

The USA baffles me, Natman, so I view it with caution. But it does seem to me that the hard right of the Republican Party, perhaps about a third of its members/voters, believes that the Democrats and Liberals have no political, social or moral legitimacy at all no matter how many votes they get.

That is a very dangerous position to take. The hard right cannot ever accept Democrats holding power. The outcome seems to me to be the only alternative to a liberal democracy, a system based on coercion and violence.

Edit: forgot to add that the real reason is race and "ethnicity". the Repugs are the white political party and the Democrats are split. Only about half its voters are white and are thus "un-American" in the tiny little minds of many Republicans. It's the greatest sin of all to be "un-American".

[a_haworthroberts]

It MAY be true that (non-creationist) scientists have sometimes been too inflexible over their 'own' pet hypotheses and their stance dies with them rather than while they are still alive.

True it may be but they still have to convince their peers with evidence. And if they don't, tough luck. Hoyle for example stood firm on steady state theory whilst the world moved on around him. He needed evidence the other argument was better he lost. Inflexible scientists yes, inflexible science no. Science doesn't respect beliefs it just is.

The moment you hear someone attacked for being anti-science, you can be certain that the person making this charge is a true believer in the teachings of that rank charlatan, Mr. Scientific Truth". OK, I think that's an exaggeration. But - while the writer may be targeting 'liberals' and anti-creationists with his comments - there is some truth in his comment.

Which is? Science doesn't know everything but doesn't claim to. Nor does it answer every type of question but its not designed to.

Some ideas now accepted as scientific were initially dismissed as anti-scientific or unscientific notions put forward by crackpots.

[Peter Henderson]

Meanwhile, thousands still flock to listen to Ham in Minnesota:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

Over 10,000 people (including over 4,000 at the two school assemblies) attended the sessions Sunday through Monday at the AiG conference held at Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota (near Minneapolis).

We rarely experience such support as we received from the Senior Pastor and all the other pastors/leadership at this church, which is well known in the region for teaching God’s Word unashamedly, boldly, and uncompromisingly! What a blessing it was for us to be at such a church. This church also teaches apologetics to the young people to equip them to be able to defend the Christian faith. They bring their young people to the Creation Museum each year!

The feedback was phenomenal!

As I explained yesterday on this blog, two AiG staff drove through the night (over 700 miles one way) to bring a cargo-van full of resources for yesterday’s sessions, as we ran out of most books and DVDs by Sunday evening. Most of the extra material was gone by the end of the two school sessions in the morning! I don’t think Minnesota will be the same. So much material has gone out into the communities and will be used to train children and witness to people in the region. The following photographs were taken yesterday at various sessions:

and lap all this crap up.

Somehow, I doubt P.Z. Myers would attract anything near that number of people if he gave a talk there.

[a_haworthroberts]

Meanwhile, thousands still flock to listen to Ham in Minnesota:

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs ... Ken+Ham%29

Over 10,000 people (including over 4,000 at the two school assemblies) attended the sessions Sunday through Monday at the AiG conference held at Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota (near Minneapolis).

We rarely experience such support as we received from the Senior Pastor and all the other pastors/leadership at this church, which is well known in the region for teaching God’s Word unashamedly, boldly, and uncompromisingly! What a blessing it was for us to be at such a church. This church also teaches apologetics to the young people to equip them to be able to defend the Christian faith. They bring their young people to the Creation Museum each year!

The feedback was phenomenal!

As I explained yesterday on this blog, two AiG staff drove through the night (over 700 miles one way) to bring a cargo-van full of resources for yesterday’s sessions, as we ran out of most books and DVDs by Sunday evening. Most of the extra material was gone by the end of the two school sessions in the morning! I don’t think Minnesota will be the same. So much material has gone out into the communities and will be used to train children and witness to people in the region. The following photographs were taken yesterday at various sessions:

and lap all this crap up.

Somehow, I doubt P.Z. Myers would attract anything near that number of people if he gave a talk there.

I assume you saw my two comments last night 'Creationland - where religion holds sway'.

[Peter Henderson]

Missed that Ashley.Sorry. I've had a long day.

It always amazes me that Ham can attract such large crowds of followers, it really does.

Still, 11,000 in this wee place signed that stupid petition against Ulster Museum.

I'm waiting for something to appear on BBC NI's news, when McCausland and Storey will no doubt start their nonsense again.

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

All right, Miller's talk ends at ~1:10. There are 58 minutes of Q&A.

1:14: Miller, "As an ex- Barry Goldwater Republican, I appreciate you saying that large elements of the Left are anti science. And it is certainly true. You see this for example most clearly in the European political Left. Where, the European Left is enormously hostile to science and technology."

1:20:57 Public member: "A lot of people on the Left claim to be supportive of science. But with what we saw in the various debates in school boards as we have seen here in Ohio, our strongest support has come from traditional Republicans- traditional conservatives. The Democrats have been very very weak in their support, and sometimes have been opposed to the science curriculum." Miller: "I should also point out that I showed a cartoon at the beginning to point this out; I wrote an OpEd piece right after the (Dover) trial published in the Philadelphia Inquirer that said, "If there were ever a place for the proponents of intelligent design to have a "home field advantage" it was in the Federal Court in Harrisburg. They had a popularly elected school board that was behind them. They had a citizenry that was behind them. They had a Federal Judge recommended to the Bench by Rick Santorum, who in his three years on the Bench had established himself as a conservative jurist, and as a self described "strict constructionist." Everything should have gone their way."

That was it. That was your "evidences." That took over an hour to find and transcribe. Two comments that showed that the fucking Republicans had merely tried to cover for their party. Miller was also wrong about the "popular" school board, and "a citizenry that was behind them." The creationists were elected as "fiscal conservatives" who could eliminate "waste" and find lots of money to support schools without taxes. They cost the schools millions. They were all voted out in the next election.

The next time, Peter, you do the homework.

By the way, a "Goldwater Republican" in the late 1960s was the most extreme Far-Right shit-heel living before you were meeting fascists stockpiling guns to kill the commie niggers. Ken Miller dropped a lot in my opinion. A whole lot.

[Peter Henderson]

That was it. That was your "evidences." That took over an hour to find and transcribe. Two comments that showed that the fucking Republicans had merely tried to cover for their party. Miller was also wrong about the "popular" school board, and "a citizenry that was behind them." The creationists were elected as "fiscal conservatives" who could eliminate "waste" and find lots of money to support schools without taxes. They cost the schools millions. They were all voted out in the next election.

The next time, Peter, you do the homework

Gary: There's no need to take that attitude. I'm only repeating what I remembered Miller saying, NOT PUTTING FORWARD MY POINT OF VIEW.

Any more of bloody crap from you or anyone else here and I'll be resigning my membership of this group.

[Chris Sergeant]

How Pythonesque. Is this a 5 minute argument or a 10 minute one?
I had forgotten never to discuss war, politics or religion!

[Roger Stanyard]

That was it. That was your "evidences." That took over an hour to find and transcribe. Two comments that showed that the fucking Republicans had merely tried to cover for their party. Miller was also wrong about the "popular" school board, and "a citizenry that was behind them." The creationists were elected as "fiscal conservatives" who could eliminate "waste" and find lots of money to support schools without taxes. They cost the schools millions. They were all voted out in the next election.

The next time, Peter, you do the homework

Gary: There's no need to take that attitude. I'm only repeating what I remembered Miller saying, NOT PUTTING FORWARD MY POINT OF VIEW.

Any more of bloody crap from you or anyone else here and I'll be resigning my membership of this group.

Gary, you've upset Peter, not an easy thing to do.

Peter lives in Northern Ireland where they have a rather charming habit unknown to the English* (or the Irish), plain straight forward speaking. It's easily misinterpreted by Limies and Americans alike.

* The English are pathologically incapable of using the English language without twisting it with some kind of nuance or irony.

[Peter Henderson]

That was it. That was your "evidences." That took over an hour to find and transcribe. Two comments that showed that the fucking Republicans had merely tried to cover for their party. Miller was also wrong about the "popular" school board, and "a citizenry that was behind them." The creationists were elected as "fiscal conservatives" who could eliminate "waste" and find lots of money to support schools without taxes. They cost the schools millions. They were all voted out in the next election.

The next time, Peter, you do the homework

Gary: There's no need to take that attitude. I'm only repeating what I remembered Miller saying, NOT PUTTING FORWARD MY POINT OF VIEW.

Any more of bloody crap from you or anyone else here and I'll be resigning my membership of this group.

Gary, you've upset Peter, not an easy thing to do.

Peter lives in Northern Ireland where they have a rather charming habit unknown to the English* (or the Irish), plain straight forward speaking. It's easily misinterpreted by Limies and Americans alike.

* The English are pathologically incapable of using the English language without twisting it with some kind of nuance or irony.

Roger: I'm sure there must be black voters in the deep south, who vote Democrat, who are deeply religious, who wouldn't be seen dead near Ham's museum, and who most likely are creationist. For example, Rev. Jesse Jackson ????????? Or how about T.D. Jakes, who attracts huge crowds and is a progressive creationist (when it comes to science rejection one's as bad as the other)

It's a bit like Northern Ireland. There are many Unionists, DUP included, who would vote Labour if they lived on the mainland, but who wouldn't be seen dead voting SDLP (unless for tactical reasons). Likewise, there are many in Sinn Féin who hold deeply fundamentalist religious views. This isn't always apparent in political debate.

[cathy]

It's a bit like Northern Ireland. There are many Unionists, DUP included, who would vote Labour if they lived on the mainland, but who wouldn't be seen dead voting SDLP (unless for tactical reasons). Likewise, there are many in Sinn Féin who hold deeply fundamentalist religious views. This isn't always apparent in political debate.

You're spot on. What Northern Ireland desperately needs is real, genuine secularism. Parties who don't give a stuff about religion and aren't affiliated to any side of a religious divide that dates back hundreds of years, no faith schools (cos sometimes it really is a matter of segregation and not just schools with a leaning) and the realisation that NI is neither Eire or the Uk but a unique blend of both. It should be proud of that and should be forging its own identity. Oh and like Eire, to stop remembering past hurts and live for the future.

With that secularism you lose the need to vote for parties that are crap but at least they're your crap and can vote for policies instead. And the grip of political creationist loons should disappear when they are no longer attached to the only party you can vote for.

And NI and Eire are the best adverts you could find for the secularism in England. We just don't care that much what others believe as long as its not forced on us and religious affiliations are never a reason to vote for someone or not.