Primitive life on Earth

[Dagsannr]

I'll bet you've spelt one or two of those wrong

Well, there's only so much you can do with a keyboard and a modern character set. Heiroglyphs and cuniform is such a pain to translate.

And I believe in all of those.

Whatever happened to "You shall have no other gods"? I don't know, the youth of today... so happy to discard the commandments of their forebears. Next, you're going to tell me you trim the hair at the side of your head!

[Luke Tyler]

Whatever happened to "You shall have no other gods"? I don't know, the youth of today... so happy to discard the commandments of their forebears. Next, you're going to tell me you trim the hair at the side of your head!

I'd like to think no one will notice.

And my forebears can't be angry with me if they aren't around.

[Brian Jordan]

Luke, I think the only thing Andy McIntosh would be unhappy about is my naming his god/designer "McIntosh's Demon"(c). I coined the term when, conflating thermodynamics with information theory, he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something. So if I understand him right, he's happy with the idea that the Earth is an open system, with a big heat source hanging in the sky, but maintains that the energy/information from it can be packed full of qualifications yet an organism can't do anything with it unless it has a Bible directing it. Hence McIntosh's Demon (cf Maxwell's Demon.)

[Luke Tyler]

...he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something...

I'm afraid I can make nothing of that whatsoever. What does he mean by "something"?

[Brian Jordan]

...he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something...

I'm afraid I can make nothing of that whatsoever. What does he mean by "something"?

I'll try and dig out the recording over Christmas, and tell you exactly what he said. It's a couple of years ago now. so I can't be more precise without checking it.

[Brian Jordan]

I'll try and dig out the recording over Christmas, and tell you exactly what he said. It's a couple of years ago now. so I can't be more precise without checking it.

IIRC, I first came across the idea of McIntosh's demon whilst plowing through some of his sermons. I made notes at the time but can't find them at the moment and I've no wish to repeat the exercise. I'll have a dig on my old computer, but here's a statement of much the same idea:

But, unlike macro machines, chemical machinery at the molecular level involves setting up proteins of hundreds and usually thousands of polypeptide bonds linking a string of amino acids. And each of these bonds is in a raised energy state such that, left to itself, it would break down and not stay in that state. To suggest, as some are saying, that the raised energy state would be maintained while natural selection favoured, over many generations, single random mutations, one by one, to finally bring together the full complement of necessary amino acids is, frankly, thermodynamically absurd. This is never observed and is contrary to all thermodynamic principles of energy transfer.

New machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines. Intelligence is needed. And this thesis is falsifiable. If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template), then this argument would have been falsified. No one has ever achieved this.

So, you see, you can have no evolution without the help of McIntosh's Demon.
http://www.e-n.org.uk/p-4447-Standing-firm-on-creation.htm (my emphasis)

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

I love it when these idiots yammer about "thermodynamics" and "activation energy" like they have actually learned some chemistry. What fuckwits.

People should be familiar with "An Introduction to Entropy-and-Evolution and The Second Law of Thermodynamics ( The Second Law in Science and in Young-Earth Creationism )" by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/thermo.htm

and,

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics and "Chemical Evolution" for the Origin of Life"
also by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origi ... life.htm#i

They are not the "ultimate" word on the topic, but are written in easy to understand terms with a familiarity with creationist's mangling of the topic.

[Michael]

Note that Rusbult is an evangelical

[Luke Tyler]

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics and "Chemical Evolution" for the Origin of Life"
also by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.

"Aaaah, but is he a fellow of the institute of Physics? Or a professor of thermodynamics?"

=Poe's=

[Brian Jordan]

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics and "Chemical Evolution" for the Origin of Life"
also by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.

"Aaaah, but is he a fellow of the institute of Physics? Or a professor of thermodynamics?"

I bet he's not a Member of the Institution of Gas Engineers and Managers (UK).

[marcsurtees]

...he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something...

I'm afraid I can make nothing of that whatsoever. What does he mean by "something"?

IIRC, Andy states that a machine is needed to get energy to do work. The point is that if the lifeless earth is absorbing electromaganetic radiation all that happens is it gets hot!
A machine is required to make use of the energy. The energy on its own just reduces the world to its equilibrium state whereas life is disequilibrium with its environment.

[Dagsannr]

IIRC, Andy states that a machine is needed to get energy to do work. The point is that if the lifeless earth is absorbing electromaganetic radiation all that happens is it gets hot!
A machine is required to make use of the energy. The energy on its own just reduces the world to its equilibrium state whereas life is disequilibrium with its environment.

And all those photochemical reactions are just what? Chopped liver?

[Roger Stanyard]

...he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something...

I'm afraid I can make nothing of that whatsoever. What does he mean by "something"?

IIRC, Andy states that a machine is needed to get energy to do work. The point is that if the lifeless earth is absorbing electromaganetic radiation all that happens is it gets hot!
A machine is required to make use of the energy. The energy on its own just reduces the world to its equilibrium state whereas life is disequilibrium with its environment.

Can anyone translate Fingers McIntosh's engineering into either English or science. Maybe I'm daft but in engineering all a machine does is convert one form of energy into another. The first law of thermodynamics.

[cathy]

The energy on its own just reduces the world to its equilibrium state whereas life is disequilibrium with its environment.

Sorry Marc you're just throwing about statements. Can you give a more detailed explanation of what the hell you mean? Which parts of chemistry are in equilibrium and which disequilibrium. Why about irreversible reactions. What on Earth is he on about.

The point is that if the lifeless earth is absorbing electromaganetic radiation all that happens is it gets hot!

And chemical reactions are?

[Roger Stanyard]

...he said that it's no use adding information/energy into a system unless there was something there to make it do something...

I'm afraid I can make nothing of that whatsoever. What does he mean by "something"?

IIRC, Andy states that a machine is needed to get energy to do work. The point is that if the lifeless earth is absorbing electromaganetic radiation all that happens is it gets hot!
A machine is required to make use of the energy. The energy on its own just reduces the world to its equilibrium state whereas life is disequilibrium with its environment.

Can anyone translate Fingers McIntosh's engineering into either English or science. Maybe I'm daft but in engineering all a machine does is convert one form of energy into another. The first law of thermodynamics.