A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Many Christians do not believe that Scripture supports the Young Earth Creationist position. This moderated forum is for good natured scholarly debate.

Moderator: Moderators

A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby Michael » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:55 am

This is what evangelcal broadcaster Dean Ohlman says on facebook

My Top Ten Problems with Hellfire Christians

1. Many seem to take devious delight in consigning people to hell.
2. Many of those who don’t delight in it still seem to like the idea of eternal torment instead of being horrified by it.
3. Man...y claim to know who will be in heaven and hell--and can name several individuals whose destiny they seem to know (Gandhi and Hitler, of course, being two).
4. Many who hold fast to believing in the eternal torment and torture of unbelievers seem to forget that the Bible does not make any of our traditional church-contrived “mercy affirmations”: our belief that children under the “age-of-accountability” and the severely brain-damaged will not go to hell, since we are sure God would not hold any one accountable who does not know how to understand the options. In these instances they are universalists who believe love wins.
5. To be a good hellfire Christian, you have to hold that everyone, regardless of age or capacity to understand the gospel, goes to eternal torment. (Strict hellfire Calvinists have it easy: God elects a few for heaven and the rest He elects for everlasting darkness, fire, torment, and separation from God).
6. Many make no distinctions between the devilish evil of people like Charles Manson (the wicked that we believe deserve hell) and the innocent ignorance of a poor, young Hindu mother who dies never having heard the name of Jesus. Both get the same eternal torment. Hellfire Calvinists call them both “totally depraved,” so they both get what they deserve (Calvinists being glad, of course, that they received God’s amazing grace—and their children and grandchildren too—that the others were not so lucky to receive).
7. Many (helped by John MacArthur and John Piper) believe Rob Bell is a heretic, liar, and an unbeliever (hence deserving hell), in spite of the fact that he makes the same conclusions C. S. Lewis does and his mentor from the grave, George MacDonald, who could not believe that God’s love could ever leave any of the souls He created suffering for eternity. They demonize Bell and idolize Lewis.
8. Many made decisions for Christ because they didn’t want to go to hell but show very little evidence that their “faith” is anything more than “fire insurance.”
9. Many don’t realize that the evangelist Paul’s two clear definitions of the gospel do not make mention of hell: “Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God–which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures–concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name’s sake” (Romans 1.1-5). “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15.1-4)
10. Most hellfire Christians are not content to consider the issue of final judgment as something we have only scant understanding of and that the risen and coming Christ is the one who makes the final call: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death” (Rev. 1:18).

I thought you would like this. I have met Dean who is upsetting creationists as he is one of those who is pro-geology and a little bit anti-evolution. He made me a walking pole 10 years ago and is blackballed by BJU.

Just to show good can come out of fundies and not all American fundies are rapture -ready and hold lighted matches :D
Michael
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: Lancaster

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:48 am

Michael wrote:This is what evangelcal broadcaster Dean Ohlman says on facebook

My Top Ten Problems with Hellfire Christians


I thought you would like this. I have met Dean who is upsetting creationists as he is one of those who is pro-geology and a little bit anti-evolution. He.....is blackballed by BJU.



Strange isn't it that fundamentalists have been pushing "teach the controversy" for years but as soon as their own views come under scrutiny they shut "debate" down - in an alleged university of all places.

My personal view is that this is why fundamentalism is completely incompatible with democracy and the 21st century. It's just hard line theocracy, with the madmen in charge.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
User avatar
Roger Stanyard
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby marcsurtees » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:48 pm

Michael wrote:This is what evangelcal broadcaster Dean Ohlman says on facebook

My Top Ten Problems with Hellfire Christians


I don't beleive any of those things either and I would disagree with anyone who does!
Marc
_______________________________________________________
"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing
— they believe in anything." (commonly attributed to) G.K. Chesterton
marcsurtees
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby cathy » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:49 pm

What confused me when the fundies tried to convert me to their church was that they said somebody who didn't forgive was bound for hell? I cited the case that was in court at the time of parents whose daughter had been murdered yet the murderer was showing utter contempt for them and the legal process. They said that if he, at any time repented he'd go to heaven. Unless they forgave him they'd go to hell. They seemed to have little or no empathy for the parents.

I don't think I'd ever forgive someone in those circumstances. I don't think many parents could. So that struck me a very harsh. They also said anyone that knew about christianity but didn't believe would go to hell, in fact they had to be rebaptised and born again, which sounded odd to me. That left the bizarre scenario of really nice, good caring atheists going to hell whilst some fairly unpleasant and arrogant christians (like the guy that first lent me the AiG book) going to heaven.

That guy sounds way nicer than any of them yet they blackball him.
cathy
 
Posts: 3662
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:30 am

cathy wrote:What confused me when the fundies tried to convert me to their church was that they said somebody who didn't forgive was bound for hell? I cited the case that was in court at the time of parents whose daughter had been murdered yet the murderer was showing utter contempt for them and the legal process. They said that if he, at any time repented he'd go to heaven. Unless they forgave him they'd go to hell. They seemed to have little or no empathy for the parents.

I don't think I'd ever forgive someone in those circumstances. I don't think many parents could. So that struck me a very harsh. They also said anyone that knew about christianity but didn't believe would go to hell, in fact they had to be rebaptised and born again, which sounded odd to me. That left the bizarre scenario of really nice, good caring atheists going to hell whilst some fairly unpleasant and arrogant christians (like the guy that first lent me the AiG book) going to heaven.

That guy sounds way nicer than any of them yet they blackball him.


I hope that one day you meet some disciples of Jesus rather than these people who seem to have some every strange and non-biblical ideas.
Marc
_______________________________________________________
"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing
— they believe in anything." (commonly attributed to) G.K. Chesterton
marcsurtees
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby Michael » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:32 am

marcsurtees wrote:
cathy wrote:What confused me when the fundies tried to convert me to their church was that they said somebody who didn't forgive was bound for hell? I cited the case that was in court at the time of parents whose daughter had been murdered yet the murderer was showing utter contempt for them and the legal process. They said that if he, at any time repented he'd go to heaven. Unless they forgave him they'd go to hell. They seemed to have little or no empathy for the parents.

I don't think I'd ever forgive someone in those circumstances. I don't think many parents could. So that struck me a very harsh. They also said anyone that knew about christianity but didn't believe would go to hell, in fact they had to be rebaptised and born again, which sounded odd to me. That left the bizarre scenario of really nice, good caring atheists going to hell whilst some fairly unpleasant and arrogant christians (like the guy that first lent me the AiG book) going to heaven.

That guy sounds way nicer than any of them yet they blackball him.


I hope that one day you meet some disciples of Jesus rather than these people who seem to have some every strange and non-biblical ideas.



Speechless
Michael
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: Lancaster

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby cathy » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:28 pm

Marc wrote: hope that one day you meet some disciples of Jesus rather than these people who seem to have some every strange and non-biblical ideas.
Marc they were the same as you-creationists. Their church websites say exactly the same as your church website-inerrancy of bible and everything else etc etc. They were the non mainstream denominations just like you and apart from the rather angry creationist they said what they said very pleasantly. And like you they were of the "everyones a worthless sinner" persausion. They were no different to you, and were trying to convert folk so they wouldn't go to hell. The only problem was they had the opposite effect on most folk they met. So tell me honestly you don't believe the same?
cathy
 
Posts: 3662
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Location: Redditch

Re: A Bob Jones Univ graduate on hell

Postby franknhonest » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:04 pm

In Calvinism, "Total Depravity" is a word referring to the extent of depravity (i.e. affecting the whole individual), not the depth of it (obviously some people are more evil than others). Just to clear up a bit of confusion...
franknhonest
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:15 pm
Location: UK


Return to Scripture Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron