From NCSE

Many Christians do not believe that Scripture supports the Young Earth Creationist position. This moderated forum is for good natured scholarly debate.

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Re: From NCSE

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:05 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:I certainly hadn't heard about the Koran burning - how did these Muslim nutcases get to hear about it?
Their mediaeval mind-set is coupled with modern technology. I've seen mention of the incineration on the web sites of sundry newspapers which wouldn't be available - especially on paper - to the probably ignorant peasants who rioted but would have been scanned by the nutters who inflamed them. One wonders, of course, whether the publicity given to conflagration has led indirectly to this outcome but should we censor the trivial. just to avoid upsetting obsessives?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:19 pm

Keep focussed on this creationist nutter :evil:

He wont answer questions
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:25 pm

Not quite sure what you are on about, Michael. Is it just me?

"I don't know" is an answer. A poor one, admittedly. Which suggests that creationists take things on faith and cannot refute real science - but it still doesn't bother them.

PS - Or did you mean the earlier question as to why Marc first suggested that pre-Cambrian fossils were all/nearly all aquatic?

Some creationists appear to me even try to 'twist' the what the Bible says on occasions. Such as our friend Jon Hughes here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3CNDGQE ... DGQEASW958
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1EN0UUFX3 ... 0UUFX3JY55
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:26 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:Not quite sure what you are on about, Michael. Is it just me?

"I don't know" is an answer. A poor one, admittedly. Which suggests that creationists take things on faith and cannot refute real science - but it still doesn't bother them.

PS - Or did you mean the earlier question as to why Marc first suggested that pre-Cambrian fossils were all/nearly all aquatic?

Some creationists appear to me even try to 'twist' the what the Bible says on occasions. Such as our friend Jon Hughes here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3CNDGQE ... DGQEASW958
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1EN0UUFX3 ... 0UUFX3JY55


Marc's ignorance of basic geology is staggering. If he knew a little he could have responed quickly and earlier.

Yet he gives luectures on the fossil record :roll:
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:40 am

Michael wrote:
Marc's ignorance of basic geology is staggering. If he knew a little he could have responed quickly and earlier.

Yet he gives luectures on the fossil record :roll:


I am the first to admit that as a biologist my strength is not in geology, however I would suggest that the finer points of the flora and fauna of old red torridonian sandstone is not basic geology.

The statement that pre-cambrian life is aquatic is hardly a gross inaccuracy.

Maybe a bit of gentle instruction would be a more appropriate response from one Christian brother to another.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:51 am

marcsurtees wrote: I am the first to admit that as a biologist my strength is not in geology, however I would suggest that the finer points of the flora and fauna of old red torridonian sandstone is not basic geology
Why isn't it? Oh and Marc you've given lots of lectures on geology for the Edinburgh Creation Group haven't you (and physics and astronomy, genetics etc)? Where you've claimed that all the mainstream expertise in geology was lacking in some way? You could have asked Michael before doing them or checked your facts elsewhere? Now if I was to give a lecture on geology or any subject I wasn't clear on, I'd be checking and re-checking my facts, I'd be nervous of questions and I certainly wouldn't be saying the experts in that particular field were wrong and I was right. When teachers have to teach outside their subject (which all science teachers certainly have to at some point) they check first.

I also noticed expert engineer McIntosh questioning the validity of what the expert geneticist was saying about the genome on last weeks big question. Is this the norm for creationists? I know the answer is yes.
Last edited by cathy on Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:01 am

Sadly, this story is all too TRUE.

http://www.channel4.com/news/at-least-8 ... an-burning

An irrational religion provokes another even more irrational (and evil) religion. That religion then murders innocent UN workers in cold blood.

I certainly hadn't heard about the Koran burning - how did these Muslim nutcases get to hear about it?

So an ignoramous pastor burns someone elses holy book, probably being to stupid to realise that their religion is also based on the old testament of his holy book and that the person he supposedly worships (Jesus) is also revered as a prophet by their religion. Then the followers of that religion go and kill some people totally unrelated to that Pastor. And some kind of bible group round the corner from me is advertising their latest talk-Humanism the root cause of all societies problems. Would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Not sure that fundamentalist Islam is even more irrational and evil that fundamentalist christianity myself. Think they go together well which is incredibly sad for the majority of really nice, caring, rational believers but there you go.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:16 am

Cathy

I think my biology is like your geology. We both know what we don'r know. I am very hesitant to speak about biology and usually avoid it.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:46 pm

cathy wrote:
marcsurtees wrote: I am the first to admit that as a biologist my strength is not in geology, however I would suggest that the finer points of the flora and fauna of old red torridonian sandstone is not basic geology
Why isn't it?

Doh :!:

cathy wrote:Oh and Marc you've given lots of lectures on geology for the Edinburgh Creation Group haven't you (and physics and astronomy, genetics etc)? Where you've claimed that all the mainstream expertise in geology was lacking in some way? You could have asked Michael before doing them or checked your facts elsewhere?

I'd be very happy to accept any correction on the facts that I presented at my two (I think it was only 2) talks that touched on geology. I think it's my interpretation of the facts that you would disagree with not the facts themselves.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:20 pm

I'd be very happy to accept any correction on the facts that I presented at my two (I think it was only 2) talks that touched on geology. I think it's my interpretation of the facts that you would disagree with not the facts themselves.
Try you tube, I think the facts from many of your talks have actually been shown to be inaccurate, incomplete or misleading by more expert commentators there. You've been taken to task by more expert people here on many occassions as well(somewhere it was suggested you ought really to check your simple facts first-I think it might have been when you were accusing me of inadvertantly working for the devil). And your interpretations of whats left have been shown to be somewhat bizarre, twisted and illogical as well. I prefer not to have to twist reality into some kind of Alice in Wonderland place when a more logical interpretation works so much better.

When it comes to interpreting facts I prefer someone that doesn't have the incredibly narrow agenda that you have (i.e fitting the first few pages of the bible-and don't bring up the evolutionary paradigm yet again, what we understand about evolution evolves and changes as we learn more, it is far from fixed) and that has some expertise in that area. When my car rattles I go to a mechanic to intrepret it not a doctor.

And when it comes to interpreting the bible for that matter, I think I'd go for someone with some expertise as well. So far, from what little I've picked up since my introduction to the whacky world of creationism, that involves a non literal interpretation of the first bit. You attend an independent church so how do you know that your pastor actually knows what he's on about without any more intellectual guidance? There was a really good programme about the garden of edon on BBC on Tues called the bibles buried secrets. It's presented by a hebrew biblical scholar. Perhaps you should catch it on i player.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:06 pm

I think it's my interpretation of the facts that you would disagree with not the facts themselves.

There is no interpretation of facts in geology with respect to either the age of the Earth (i.e. it's not 6,000 years old\0, or that there was no global flood 4,500 years ago. Facts are facts Marc, regardless of interpretation.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:12 am

"Not sure that fundamentalist Islam is even more irrational and evil that fundamentalist christianity myself."

I am. Somebody was on the verge of being beaten to death in Afghanistan this weekend - even though they have never ever been involved with Koran burning or the stupid Pastor Terry Jones. But they were, fortunately, allowed to live by the taliban/insurgent morons - because they were able to recite parts of the Koran.

I suspect it's many centuries since 'infidels'/'apostates' were beaten to death by Christians, but might have been allowed to live if they started quoting John 3 verse 16 or some other famous Bible verse. (What does quoting from scripture necessarily prove anyway, if you are brought up in the faith concerned?) But when muslim fundamentalists are evil and full of hatred it's because they are irrational and they also think that God approves of their 'jihad' - and I suspect it's mainly their book that makes them like this. Fortunately there are peaceable muslims too.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:12 am

I suspect it's many centuries since 'infidels'/'apostates' were beaten to death by Christians, but might have been allowed to live if they started quoting John 3 verse 16 or some other famous Bible verse. (What does quoting from scripture necessarily prove anyway, if you are brought up in the faith concerned?) But when muslim fundamentalists are evil and full of hatred it's because they are irrational and they also think that God approves of their 'jihad' - and I suspect it's mainly their book that makes them like this. Fortunately there are peaceable muslims too.
I don't know Ashley because I don't know how christians behave in countries where that sort of behaviour is possible (like the Afghanistans and Sudans of this world). I suspect when it comes to brutality and violence you're right-hopefully it's the good parts of christianity we exported.

I'm not sure the Koran is any worse or better than the bible? It has its good and vile bits as well as bits that are interpreted differently according to culture, like the men and women must dress modestly meaning a burkha in Saudi and skirts not to short in Indonesia. I honestly think how people practise their religion has a lot more to do with culture and upbringing then whats in their holy book. Brutality and ignorance are bigger factors in which parts of a religion you think is most important. I don't know a single muslim that fits the negative stereotype but I do know they exist unfortunately cos muslim friends have filled me in on some of the worse of it. Eg Islamabad=ok to be a woman, get educated, get good job, wear western clothes-small Pakistani villages=vile to be female. Can be beaten to death and nobody will really care cos you're a girl and definitely a second class citizen.

As for irrationality because of whats in a holy book-that does cross the borders of religion. I'm sure Marc and the creationists think god approves of their lies and distortions. And the catholic church in the third world has been horrendous not because of overt violence but because it expects people to abide by doctrines that have led to the spread of HIV/AIDs and to women having way more children than they can feed.

Islam is about 500 to 1000 years newer than christianity isn't it? I suppose it's where we were at the time of the inquistion or the violence of the reformation? I'm not sure. I think all religions have the potential to be good or bad depending on whose pratising them.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:33 pm

At this point I feel that I should perhaps hold my hand up and confirm that I have never read any of the Koran (I did once - about 30 years ago - read the whole Bible from 'front' to 'back', over the course of around a year).
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Re: From NCSE

Postby jon_12091 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:50 pm

Michael wrote:I hav e a comprehensive collection of Torridonian fossils


*Raises eyebrow in arch manner*
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