From NCSE

Many Christians do not believe that Scripture supports the Young Earth Creationist position. This moderated forum is for good natured scholarly debate.

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Re: From NCSE

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:30 am

For the intellectually curious the Torrodonian is dated between 1199 +/- 70 Ma for the older Stoer Group and 994 +/-48 Ma for the younger Torridon Group with the underlying Lewisian Gneiss being around 1200 Ma and the uncomformably overlying Lower Cambrian sediments approximately 530 Ma. This makes the Torridonian Meso- to Neoproterozoic or late Precambrian. There is an extensive micro-biota present in the shales of the Torridonian consistent with the dating - mainly acritrachs and cryptarchs and some probable stromatolites
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:38 pm

I think we've been here before: cue versions of
All things bright and beautiful,
The little spirochaete...Then move on to the eye-devouring worm etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Yes and every time guys like you come out with that we give you the answer.
The fact that you are against creationism is your choice but please do not use the old straw man arguments when your have been given a perfectly logoical explanation...
Marc have you read my points which Brian has summarised in the above. What you give whenever you're asked for evidence is a load of random, meaningless creationist terms. They do not constitute logical explanations by any stretch of the imagination. Eg beauty in nature is a statement not evidence! As pointed out, for all it's beauty naure is cruel and not well designed (see what I've put earlier-you know the points you never respond to) a materials scientist or engineer would do a better job.

Your other comments are equally trite. Just saying chem etc show discontinuity is neither an explanation nor evidence it is just a statement.

Likewise a philosopher's deatbed conversion is not relevant nor evidence. I might as well say my granny died a catholic, catholics accept evolution hence evolution is true.

As for the before the fall nonsense. Would you not be better trying to explain some of the problems that would have arisen in this ill thought out, badly designed original world. Like the sheer numbers of fast breeding animals without death?

If you are unprepared to say why you're a creationist or you simply don't know, say so. Don't keep talking in creationist cliches all the time.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Robert » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 pm

marcsurtees wrote:I became a creationist when I became a Christian. It is fundamental to Christian belief that there is a creator.
I never rejected science, (I chose a scientific career in biology and clinical research) but I did reject the idea of common descent, and a billion year old earth, because the evidence was not compelling enough.
So I remained a creationist because there was no good scientific reason to doubt that God did it the way He said He did it.


I think we can all see Marc is a primate change denier.

May I suggest http://www.amazon.co.uk/Irrationality-S ... ks&ie=UTF8 and http://www.amazon.co.uk/Supersense-Why- ... _5?s=books as an insight into why people believe things that are not true.

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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:36 pm

Robert wrote:I think we can all see Marc is a primate change denier.


I love it. :P Can I use this in my talks or is it copyrighted?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:40 pm

Michael wrote:
marcsurtees wrote:
Michael wrote:What's the logical explanation ?


God made everything very good and we broke it. Genesis chapter 3.


What on earth does that mean?

Please explain


Michael, are you the Michael who is a minister of the CoE, or am I mistaken?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:51 pm

cathy wrote:Eg beauty in nature is a statement not evidence! As pointed out, for all it's beauty...

When you see a beautiful landscape painting, you are seeing evidence that there is a great artist. When you see a beautiful landscape garden you are seeing evidence of a gardener. When we see beauty in the night sky we are seeing the work of a great builder of the universe.

cathy wrote:As for the before the fall nonsense. Would you not be better trying to explain some of the problems that would have arisen in this ill thought out, badly designed original world. Like the sheer numbers of fast breeding animals without death?


I have already tried to answer that one... and I will try again.
Do not assume that the world before the fall functioned in the same way as the world after the fall. No-one can give you a detailed description of how it worked, as we only have a few clues and while it might be interesting to speculate in the end that is all that it is.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:52 pm

jon_12091 wrote: There is an extensive micro-biota present in the shales of the Torridonian consistent with the dating - mainly acritrachs and cryptarchs and some probable stromatolites


Would those be aquatic creatures, by any chance?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:54 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:Christians who choose creationism usually think that God has forbidden them ever to change their mind back again concerning origins - even whilst still believing the gospel.


Were do you get your Christians from?


I note that Marc has ignored my two questions at 6.30 pm yesterday.

And am I really the only one who hasn't a clue what he meant by 'discontinuity in the natural world'? (Correction just made.)
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:01 pm

PS Does 'discontinuity' refer to before the Fall (around 6,000 years' ago?) and after the Fall? If so, what are these 'known facts' from chemistry, biology and genetics that show such discontinuity in the natural world? I also note that Marc did not specifically mention geology.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:08 pm

cathy wrote:Thats not evidence marc, yet again I'll point out that they are just random, meaningless creationist phrases NOT evidence. They do not support the hypothesis of creative activity in the light of what we know. However assuming you wish to test that hypothesis-how are you going to do it scientifically???


One way would be to try and falsify the hypothesis that life comes from living things.
I would try to image how life could have evolved from non-living chemicals and do some experiments to see if it was possible, after each failure I would try refinements and look for other plausible scenarios.
But when I see that the reports in the literature show that this has been done and after decades of effort are still showing that all the possibilities are dead ends, I would begin to be rather confident that a designer was the best explanation...
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:35 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:I note that Marc has ignored my two questions at 6.30 pm yesterday.


I take it you mean these ones. Please bear in mind that there are more of you than me and it is hard to keep track of the various sub threads...

a_haworthroberts wrote:
The known facts of chemistry, biology, genetics that show discontinuity in the natural world.

Please try to enlighten us further, Marc.

I really do not have the time to list all the evidence... but if you read the literature it is everywhere...
but here are a few examples of discontiniuity.
chemistry to biology
Prokaryote to eukaryote
single cell to multicellular life...
The origin of limbs, jaws, wings...

a_haworthroberts wrote:
I did reject the idea of common descent, and a billion year old earth, because the evidence was not compelling enough.


In what way did you find the evidence for a billion year old Earth not compelling enough? Especially if the alternative is a mere 6,000 years. Are you accepting the latter uncritically simply because you are not completely scientifically convinced of the former?

The methods do not seem to be very robust. For example you have supposedly absolute radiometric dating methods which give statistically different answers. To claim that this is not a problem is not convincing.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:39 pm

marc wrote: One way would be to try and falsify the hypothesis that life comes from living things.
I would try to image how life could have evolved from non-living chemicals and do some experiments to see if it was possible, after each failure I would try refinements and look for other plausible scenarios.
But when I see that the reports in the literature show that this has been done and after decades of effort are still showing that all the possibilities are dead ends, I would begin to be rather confident that a designer was the best explanation...
And we're back to the beginning yet again, where you ignore all the work that is being done, the magnitude of the task, and the very plausible hypotheses. Go back and read what Psi said about it earlier on or try some of the newer literature. Maybe something that Ken hasn't already ok'd. It is a problem that will eventually be solved but it is a huge task. Also you can keep looking for failure forever, it still doesn't give you POSITIVE evidence of a designer does it. Oh and you seem to have forgotten to do the favourite creationist cliche/lie about scientists waiting round for chemicals to organise themselves into cells yet ha ha ha.

Your logic suggest what the way to support abiogenesis would be to try to to falsify your hypothesis that men come from mud by standing by a muck hole (or pubs as we call them here) waiting for a man to appear. They could try and imagine how fully grown people could have emerged from non living mud and do some experiments to see if it was possible, after each failure they could try refinements and look for other plausible scenarios (more grit in the mud, or wetter/drier mud). As there are no reports in the literature to show that this has been achieved yet and after hours of listening to you fail to provide evidence I am beginning to be rather confident that abiogenesis was the best explanation. Or have I misunderstood your argument?

And you still haven't given us any positive evidence nor a way of testing your hypothesis directly. Please provide one. And it is STILL a separate problem from evolution. At best your argument would give a designer who placed some cyanobacteria here about 3.5 billion years ago wouldn't it.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:47 pm

Marc wrote: chemistry to biology
Discontinous!?! Happens all the time. Or am I not made from chemicals? If not what am I made from?
[/quote]

really do not have the time to list all the evidence... but if you read the literature it is everywhere...
but here are a few examples of discontiniuity.
chemistry to biology
Prokaryote to eukaryote
single cell to multicellular life...
The origin of limbs, jaws, wings...

Where in the literature does it state these are discontinous? Where is your evidence that they are discontinous. Where is your POSITIVE evidence for the book of genesis-anachronistic fossils, dating method that gives 6000 years and evidence FOR design (taking into account all I've said before)? Try looking at some biology books. Try talk origins. Try talking sense.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:49 pm

cathy wrote:Your logic suggest what the way to support abiogenesis would be to try to to falsify your hypothesis that men come from mud by standing by a muck hole (or pubs as we call them here) waiting for a man to appear.
Or perhaps for the mud to flow into a pub and become transformed therein? At least that way you could wait inside the pub. :D
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:52 pm

marcsurtees wrote:When you see a beautiful landscape painting, you are seeing evidence that there is a great artist. When you see a beautiful landscape garden you are seeing evidence of a gardener.
When you see the beautiful hillsides of the Yorkshire Dales you are seeing evidence of sheep.
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