From NCSE

Many Christians do not believe that Scripture supports the Young Earth Creationist position. This moderated forum is for good natured scholarly debate.

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Re: From NCSE

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:23 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
I take it that you are familiar with the case of Antony Flew's conversion from athiesm to deism, on the basis of the scientific evidence?


Except Anthony Flew did not "convert" to Christianity or anything remotely resembling what you believe god is. Worse still he was scientifically illiterate and gaga when he "changed" his mind and seemed to have been utterly used and manipulated by the American IDers.

He was no more a convert Christianity than to Hinduism or Islam. Cathy wasn't asking yo why you are (or claim to be) a Christian. She was asking you about why you are a creationist and it is dishonest to bring Flew up, His final position basically has nothing to do with your religious opinions. IIRC Flew did nothing more than decide that there was some sort of intelligence behind the universe. Could well have been aliens of some sort. He certainly didn't join a church or mosque.

He did not dismiss the old age of the earth (or universe) or evolutionary biology.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:30 pm

The known facts of chemistry, biology, genetics that show discontinuity in the natural world.

Please try to enlighten us further, Marc.

I did reject the idea of common descent, and a billion year old earth, because the evidence was not compelling enough.


In what way did you find the evidence for a billion year old Earth not compelling enough? Especially if the alternative is a mere 6,000 years. Are you accepting the latter uncritically simply because you are not completely scientifically convinced of the former?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:18 pm

Ashley wrote: Are you accepting the latter uncritically simply because you are not completely scientifically convinced of the former?
It would appear so. Marc does not find compelling amd overwhelming evidence compelling enough yet willingly and unquestioningly accepts creationist evidence that every scientist on the planet finds utterly ridiculous. That is my main criticism and one he is incapable of responding to or defending.

Roger wrote: Except Anthony Flew did not "convert" to Christianity or anything remotely resembling what you believe god is. Worse still he was scientifically illiterate and gaga when he "changed" his mind and seemed to have been utterly used and manipulated by the American IDers.

Marc I may be a little thick but I've never actually heard of Anthony Flew, and his conversion to whatever is not evidence for a 6000 year old earth nor an explanation of why you are a creationist.

Roger wrote: Cathy wasn't asking yo why you are (or claim to be) a Christian. She was asking you about why you are a creationist
Thanks thats exactly what I wanted to know. I can understand people becoming christians but not creationists. I was/am extremely curious as to why and when you chose creationism. Why chose something that removes you from things that are interesting and wonderful about the world.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:19 pm

Christians who choose creationism usually think that God has forbidden them ever to change their mind back again concerning origins - even whilst still believing the gospel.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:36 pm

cathy wrote:Marc I may be a little thick but I've never actually heard of Anthony Flew, and his conversion to whatever is not evidence for a 6000 year old earth nor an explanation of why you are a creationist.


Anthony Flew was a leading British philosopher who died a couple of years or so back. Best know for the "never a true Scotsman" fallacy,
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:27 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
marcsurtees wrote:Beauty in nature.
All of these support the hypothesis of creative activity, and give some indication of the nature of the designer.
I think we've been here before: cue versions of
All things bright and beautiful,
The little spirochaete...
Then move on to the eye-devouring worm etc. etc. ad nauseam.


Yes and every time guys like you come out with that we give you the answer.
The fact that you are against creationism is your choice but please do not use the old straw man arguments when your have been given a perfectly logoical explanation...
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:34 am

What's the logical explanation ?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:36 am

cathy wrote:If you really didn't want to answer or didn't know the answer I'd have much preferred you to honestly say so rather than coming out with the stock platitudinous, meaningless creationist twaddle. Why a creationist christian rather than a sane one for example? Why not say something that does not involve parroting the old creationist cliches even if it's just 'I'm not going to tell you you nosy c@@'.


If you think that my answers are not answers then there is not a lot that I can do...
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:38 am

Michael wrote:What's the logical explanation ?


God made everything very good and we broke it. Genesis chapter 3.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:39 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:Christians who choose creationism usually think that God has forbidden them ever to change their mind back again concerning origins - even whilst still believing the gospel.


Were do you get your Christians from?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:43 am

cathy wrote:Thanks thats exactly what I wanted to know. I can understand people becoming christians but not creationists. I was/am extremely curious as to why and when you chose creationism. Why chose something that removes you from things that are interesting and wonderful about the world.


Not me! I live in a wonderful world that God made (even though we broke it, it is still a place of wonder).
I know that God loves this world and that one day it will be even better, when He brings in the new creation. (If the ruins are amazing just think what the restored creation will look like!)

Now that is definately a "good bit" of the Bible...
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:51 am

Roger Stanyard wrote:
cathy wrote:
Peter wrote: I have no doubt that if Marc had learned geology under Herbie, he might not have been a YEC today.
I'm not so sure Peter. Anyone that learns and understands any science (and Marc is well qualified in biology) has no excuse whatsoever for becoming a YEC. That is why I asked Marc (though I know he won't answer).


You know my opinion on this, Cathy. Creationism/fundamentalism is an ideology or world-view, if you like. An all encompassing viewpoint. History is littered with ideological failures - people who think they have the answer to evrything. Ideologies never stand the test of time.

The majority of people simply do not have worldviews 9although many are open to them). We take some of our ideas and understanding from one direction, some from another. It's piecemeal and pragmatic but seems to me to reflect the simple home truth that virtually all of our understanding of everything comes from other people, especially in fields outside of our vocations. Even within our vocations our knowledge and understanding largely comes from others. Indeed, much of our understanding comes from admitting we don't know and separating out the plausible from the BS or plain wrong.

I'll also comment on Monty White formerly of AiG. He comes from an ideologically driven family. His parents were, by all accounts, driven by hardline Marxism.


I have said very recently that I don't know in response to a question. So that gets me out of the ideologe box :wink:
We are all driven by some ideology even if we don't call it that.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:56 am

Another story that has inspired me Marc is Glenn morton's experience:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

Why I left Young-earth Creationism
by Glenn R. Morton


Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true.


I
took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.


and that is still the problem with young earth creationism. Nothing they have taught that has challanged current geological thinking has turned out to be true in the long run, nothing. From that point of view it is a lie. why would God cause Christians to lie ?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:34 am

marcsurtees wrote:
Michael wrote:What's the logical explanation ?


God made everything very good and we broke it. Genesis chapter 3.


What on earth does that mean?

Please explain
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:09 am

marcsurtees wrote:
Michael wrote:What's the logical explanation ?


God made everything very good and we broke it. Genesis chapter 3.
So what were the spirochaetes and eye-devouring worms etc. up to twixt creation and fall, then?
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