From NCSE

Many Christians do not believe that Scripture supports the Young Earth Creationist position. This moderated forum is for good natured scholarly debate.

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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:00 pm

Brian wrote: Or perhaps for the mud to flow into a pub and become transformed therein? At least that way you could wait inside the pub.
:lol: After half of lager/glass of wine I'll believe anything really. Two glasses and I'm sure Marc could convince me.

marc wrote: The methods do not seem to be very robust. For example you have supposedly absolute radiometric dating methods which give statistically different answers. To claim that this is not a problem is not convincing.
The levels of concordance are very high and any sane person would find them more than convincing.

I still can't recall you having given us any supposedly absolute dating methods that give figures even in the thousands let alone statistically close to 6000. I'm sorry Marc-to claim that this is not a problem is not very convincing. Your evidence is so NOT robust that its vanished into thin air.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:09 pm

cathy wrote:Your logic suggest what the way to support abiogenesis would be to try to to falsify your hypothesis that men come from mud by standing by a muck hole (or pubs as we call them here) waiting for a man to appear. .... Or have I misunderstood your argument?


By the same reasoning you would have to doubt the big bang ..
and furthermore you have forgotten the designer who created man from the dust of the earth.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:13 pm

cathy wrote:
Marc wrote: chemistry to biology
Discontinous!?! Happens all the time. Or am I not made from chemicals? If not what am I made from?


Actually, you are made from a living cell...

really do not have the time to list all the evidence... but if you read the literature it is everywhere...
but here are a few examples of discontiniuity.
chemistry to biology
Prokaryote to eukaryote
single cell to multicellular life...
The origin of limbs, jaws, wings...

Where in the literature does it state these are discontinous? Where is your evidence that they are discontinous. Where is your POSITIVE evidence for the book of genesis-anachronistic fossils, dating method that gives 6000 years and evidence FOR design (taking into account all I've said before)? Try looking at some biology books. Try talk origins. Try talking sense.[/quote]

Try providing some evidence to show that the following changes have occurred:
chemistry to biology
Prokaryote to eukaryote
single cell to multicellular life...
The origin of limbs, jaws, wings...

I have read many books on biology, I read Nature every week. The evidence supports the Bible.
Marc
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:16 pm

Can you explain how man broke the earth? -- Genesis 3.

There is nothing in Genesis 3 which says that
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:24 pm

marc wrote: Actually, you are made from a living cell...

That'd be a living cell made of what then marc? Would it be chemicals by any chance?

marc wrote: have read many books on biology, I read Nature every week. The evidence supports the Bible.
Try engaging your brain when reading them. All three including the bible. I think you'll find it doesn't specify HOW your designer designed things. Must have been written by a creationist. The more you say the more you convince me there can't be a God.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Michael » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Cathy

The bbile was not written by a creationist. The writers of Genesis (somewhere between 1000 and 500BC) used Ancient Near East cosmology to express a belief in God as creator. As so many intelligent Christians have said since Origen in c250 it is not there to explain but to speak of the creator and "accommodates" itself to the thought of the day. Examples are augsutine most in middle ages Calvin and most since then except a few literalists who have become more common in recent decades.

All of these would laugh at Marc
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:46 pm

marcsurtees wrote:Actually, you are made from a living cell...
Aw, and there I was thinking little girls were made of sugar and spice and all things nice. Although in Cathy's case, you'd no doubt claim slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails. :twisted: Oh, and btw I think it's only Islam that discounts the ovum - I'm pretty sure that Christianity allows that there were TWO living cells involved. But perhaps you're of the Adam's Rib persuasion with subsequent universal human parthenogenesis? (Rather than just once, that is.)
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Re: From NCSE

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:16 pm

Marc

Thanks for your reply.

"I really do not have the time to list all the evidence... but if you read the literature it is everywhere...
but here are a few examples of discontiniuity.
chemistry to biology
Prokaryote to eukaryote
single cell to multicellular life...
The origin of limbs, jaws, wings..."

I didn't realise that you were an evolutionist.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby cathy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:35 pm

The bbile was not written by a creationist. The writers of Genesis (somewhere between 1000 and 500BC) used Ancient Near East cosmology to express a belief in God as creator. As so many intelligent Christians have said since Origen in c250 it is not there to explain but to speak of the creator and "accommodates" itself to the thought of the day. Examples are augsutine most in middle ages Calvin and most since then except a few literalists who have become more common in recent decades.

Thanks Michael. Had I come to it without being pre primed by Marc's interpretations I think those are the logical conclusions I'd have assumed most christians not just the intelligent ones would have come to. Why on earth won't Marc listen to you? He's got reasons not to listen to me-I'm the devils agent, female and ex catholic.

Brian wrote: But perhaps you're of the Adam's Rib persuasion with subsequent universal human parthenogenesis? (Rather than just once, that is.)
That wouldn't have been much fun-thank god for scrumping. Besides wouldn't all the offspring be girls? If I'm understanding creationist world correctly nothing would ever have died without the fruit eating incident so how many living things would be in the world now? And wouldn't there have been a marked imbalance of species? Lots of e coli?

Brian wrote: Although in Cathy's case, you'd no doubt claim slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails.
Yep :lol: though I always thought it was snots and snails and puppy dogs tails (thats what comes of not reading the original).
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Re: From NCSE

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:16 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
jon_12091 wrote: There is an extensive micro-biota present in the shales of the Torridonian consistent with the dating - mainly acritarchs and cryptarchs and some probable stromatolites


Would those be aquatic creatures, by any chance?


For the cryptarchs and the acritarchs 'probably' and it doesn't get any more or less certain than that. The algae almost certainly. Calling them 'creatures' is pushing it a bit.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby psiloiordinary » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:22 am

Marc said this:


I have read many books on biology, I read Nature every week. The evidence supports the Bible.


There is no conceivable evidence at all that could ever contradict the Bible Marc - for two reasons:

Firstly you have decided it can't.

Secondly you have an all knowing all powerful god so he can produce any kind of evidence.

Bearing these points in mind how do you expect this to be persuasive to anyone who is aware of them. How do you hope to keep such facts from people who are convinced?
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Peter Henderson » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:01 am

There is no conceivable evidence at all that could ever contradict the Bible Marc - for two reasons:

Firstly you have decided it can't.

Secondly you have an all knowing all powerful god so he can produce any kind of evidence.


Indeed Mark:

http://creation.com/about-us#what_we_believe

6.By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.


So, it doesn't matter what evidence scientists produce that either confirms an ancient Earth/universe, no global flood 4,500 years ago, or biological evolution, it'll always be rejected.
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:32 am

psiloiordinary wrote:Marc said this:
I have read many books on biology, I read Nature every week. The evidence supports the Bible.

There is no conceivable evidence at all that could ever contradict the Bible Marc - for two reasons:
Firstly you have decided it can't.

Truth is truth...

psiloiordinary wrote:Secondly you have an all knowing all powerful god so he can produce any kind of evidence.

No, I have an all knowing all powerful God who gave me the Bible so I would be able to know Him.

psiloiordinary wrote:Bearing these points in mind how do you expect this to be persuasive to anyone who is aware of them. How do you hope to keep such facts from people who are convinced?


I am not quite sure what you are getting at here.

Anyway regarding the evidence, you will notice that I just emailed you a link to my critique of Prothero's book, Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters:
http://www.paradigmshift.org.uk/html/Temp/Prothero.pdf
Moderators: This might be a good time to start a new thread...
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Re: From NCSE

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:22 pm

marcsurtees wrote:No, I have an all knowing all powerful God who gave me the Bible so I would be able to know Him.



God failed. Neither you or anyone else is all-knowing.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: From NCSE

Postby marcsurtees » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
marcsurtees wrote:No, I have an all knowing all powerful God who gave me the Bible so I would be able to know Him.



God failed. Neither you or anyone else is all-knowing.


So you believe that there is a God?
Marc
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