Issac vs Haworth part 2

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Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby IssacBourne » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:53 am

The fused #2 chromosome.

It is claimed that the supposed fusion of the number 2 chromosome is proof evolution from primates to humans. Below is what it is supposed to look like fused and unfused.

Image

The problem that is never discussed while making this claim is what the job of the Telomere actually is. And that is that it "keeps chromosomes from fusing". And there is a reason for that. Fusion of just any chromosome causes deformity and certain death. So for telomeres to fail at their job would mean evolution and life itself would be impossible. And besides, this idea is "based on the assumption that evolution is true". How? Can anyone prove by observation that the #2 chromosome was ever unfused? And could anyone prove by observation that fusing a primates #2 chromosome would eventually create a human? Nope. So the whole idea is an assumption and conjecture.

Observable facts are what proves a theory, not guesses, conjecture, and assumptions.

An example of how this little fact is left out in the chromosome #2 argument is illustrated in this video that is very popular in atheist circles. Now why leave that information out? Because doubt is a very powerful thing. And to win an argument concerning evolution the one common denominator we as creationist see most is information left out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdQRvSdLAs

Now given that this supposedly scientific person testified in court just like he is here. Means he left out this information. Leaving out the information about the job of the telomeres on the ends of chromosomes means he lied before the court by withholding important information that would have allowed possibly for a different outcome. Because if he did not tell it in the video, he would not have in the courts either. Because doing this in both places would have been the right thing to do if the agenda was not deception. But it's everywhere you look concerning the fusion idea.

The logic of deception here as I see it would be: Don't tell than about that because if you do they will ask questions then you would have to tell them the truth about it and that would allow doubt.

To prove why this was needed to be done, can anyone name an actual change in Chromosomes that is observable and has observable benefits? No? That's because there are none hence the job of why the telomere does what it does. Understand? To prove this even further. Here is a link to a list of chromosome change disorders.

http://www.genome.gov/11508982

Now maybe someone can link us all to a page that shows any evidence of chromosome changes that were beneficial?
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:41 am

IssacBourne wrote:
Observable facts are what proves a theory, not guesses, conjecture, and assumptions.

No theory in science can ever be proven, You don;t seem to understand even basic science. In science a theory is an explanation that has been rigourously tested by the scientific method.

Question for Ashley- Who is Isaac Bourne? He hasn't introduced humself. Is he a practising, qualified scientist?
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:03 pm

IssacBourne wrote:
An example of how this little fact is left out in the chromosome #2 argument is illustrated in this video that is very popular in atheist circles.


Yer, sure it is, even though the presenter is a practising Christian.

For what it is worth, creationism is not the Chrstian position on the differences between scpecies. Some in this forum as practising christians and, indeed, ordained minisiters; others have turned against religion because of the antics of creationists. Howver, they overwhelmingly accept the theory of evolation.

Younf Earth Creationism is a modern, US, ideology which started amongst Seven Day Adventists and was imported into the UK in the 1970s. As far as we can make out, in the key disciplines of evolutionary biology and geology, there are only two pratcising scientists in the UK who accept young earth creationists and one of them is an assistant manager in a roadstone quarry. Amongst Chrstians in the UK, young earth creationism is largely confined to four minor groups - the Brethren, independent Baptist churches, independent evangelical churches and Pentecostals. It is not the position of the Anglican Church, the Roman Catholic Church, Methodists, the Church of Scotland, manstream Baptists, the United Reformed Church....

Belief in creationism in the UK is disporportionately with Northern Ireland. Why do you think that is?

To say evolution is the atheists' position is an insult to Christians and scientists alike. In fact, I've long come to the conclusion that creationism brings Christianity into serious disrepute.
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby Brian Jordan » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:12 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:Question for Ashley- Who is Isaac Bourne? He hasn't introduced humself. Is he a practising, qualified scientist?
A Google finds him to be a rather eccentric YEC and a self-employed businessman with no obvious claims to qualifications or training in any relevant scientific discipline. Anyone who can be bothered can check here:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Issac_Bourne
There's more at the link below, including this damning comment
...Issac Bourne who posts under the screen name Ikester7579. Most of the concepts presented on this site are copied directly from the materials of Kent Hovind including slides from his Power Point presentations and concepts from his seminars and debate tapes

http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Y.E.C._Headquarters
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:48 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:
IssacBourne wrote:
Observable facts are what proves a theory, not guesses, conjecture, and assumptions.

No theory in science can ever be proven, You don;t seem to understand even basic science. In science a theory is an explanation that has been rigourously tested by the scientific method.

Question for Ashley- Who is Isaac Bourne? He hasn't introduced humself. Is he a practising, qualified scientist?


There's an article at RationalWiki which I posted here the other day (I cannot cut and paste right now so will log off and try again - in order to complete this post). (I would sooner trust the scientific knowledge of the Christian and scientist Ken Miller who Bourne is attacking on his facebook page today.) EDIT: Brian has re-posted that link.

I flagged that chromosome-2 creationist argument some months ago either here or on a YEC page*. They appeared to be saying that a fusion could not have happened or that we should not assume that one did.

http://www.yecheadquarters.org/?p=1754
"The debate was basically over before it even started. According to one of the admins there I did not have permission to debate there or start a debate there. And the section that I had posted in they said was the wrong section. Well Ashley invited me so what was one to think? It’s not like he was new there so if he needed to ask he should have. And then the administrator says: On that lengthy post you made, I accidentally deleted it while trying to move it. One that I did not have a copy of. I was not about to retype it so I told him forget it.
I was warned about debating there by more than one person I should have listened. But here the admins post.
These pics below are of where Me and others already had our names banned before we got there. Which they claimed they had no knowledge of. When it says I use forbidden characters, it means the name was manually blocked on purpose. I used to run forums, design them, and even wrote some code. So I know how they work. Now if Ashley does his usual thing he will call me a liar in all this because it’s his favorite word to use. No problem. This will be the last time I have any dealings with him or that forum."

Likewise -
https://www.facebook.com/EvolutionIsALie
"Completion of the debate between Ashley and me ended with one of the admins first telling I had to have permission to start a debate. Ashley invited me there one would think he already told them. And when the section I posted in said debate free for all. Go figure. Then he deletes a post I spent a lot of time preparing while on the forum. I did not expect anyone to delete it so I have no copy.
So I have ended the debate. I'm not putting up with being treated that way. Ashley had quit responding anyhow to my last post in another thread. Here is the screen shot of what the admin said. So the 10 atheists to 1 creationist debate is over because my starting debate question was more than they could handle. They did not even try. ~ Issac

IF THE DEBATE IS 'OVER' IT IS BECAUSE BOURNE HAS RUN AWAY. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT (see my partly capitalised concluding comment at 23.37 GMT on 2.1.15 at the main 'Conversations' thread).

He COULD return and CONTINUE. But he probably will NOT. Sound familiar for past visits here from some other YECs?

I have not called you a 'liar' in 2015 Bourne.

But I predict, from your blog comments of 2.1.15 above (in a blog post that is still dated 30.12.14), that you will NOT return and that you will continue claim that the debate is now 'over'. Despite the fact that TWO threads at 'Conversations' started by YOU remain OPEN and you have NOT been banned from the forum either.


* I raised that chromosome claim within the comments under this on 8.7.14 after YEC Wolcott said something rather silly on Bourne's facebook page at the time.
http://worldviewwarriors.blogspot.co.uk ... ation.html
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 8703914215
My detailed comment quoted some salient text from a Wikipedia page that provided references and I then added "If the fusion had occurred before species of human diverged from chimps, we would expect to see the same fused chromosome in chimps too." (Wolcott was trying to argue that humans and chimps were separately created so even if there WAS a chromosome fusion within early humanity it mean NUFFINK.)
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby IssacBourne » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:48 pm

Thanks for all the free advertisement. All the hatred should knock my Google search rankings up to the first page in YEC searches. There is always a positive side yo all the negative you guys spew. To bad all of it can't be bad for me as you guys would wish that it was.

You guys really need to update this forum to display youtube videos you are getting behind the times. and put in a debate section so people like me who thought they were invited to debate don't post in the wrong area so to speak and get their posts deleted because it can't be addressed. I guess the program writers of this forum were to stupid to put in safe guards to keep posts from getting deleted when moving posts by default.

I guess the 10 atheist to 1 creationist debate most have been an insult. To bad Hateworth is to much of a coward to debate anywhere but here because he needs his buds to protect him. Oh and don;t get mad. I'm just dishing some of the hatred back. Hateworth, are you gonna stalk me now? I'd be disappointed if you did not. I mean you stalk everyone else on the internet that you hate.

Maybe you send your troll buddies from here using fake accounts to troll the page? I mean you have to do something, I can't get away with posting like you do because you can dish it but can never take it. Come on Hateworth spew that hatred. Be like your idol Dawkins. Approve of Gentle pedophiles. Promote the killing of down syndrome babies. Oh my I'm starting to sound like Hateworth. But that can't be I don;t have that much hate in me over someone who bans me faster than any other person did when I trolled.

Back to reality. Thanks for the free advertisement I know I will get for posting this ahead of time. For I know you won't be able to resist spew it back 10 times as worse. :D I should be first selection on page one after you are done. Oh and if you can post about me on several other hate pages. I really enjoy reading it. Good hating. Bye.
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby jon_12091 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:45 pm

IssacBourne wrote:Maybe you send your troll buddies from here using fake accounts to troll the page? I mean you have to do something, I can't get away with posting like you do because you can dish it but can never take it. Come on Hateworth spew that hatred. Be like your idol Dawkins. Approve of Gentle pedophiles. Promote the killing of down syndrome babies. Oh my I'm starting to sound like Hateworth. But that can't be I don;t have that much hate in me over someone who bans me faster than any other person did when I trolled.


And all Christians are apologists for lasie fair capitalism, opposition to gun control, genocide, physical domestic abuse, rape within marriage, slavery, religiously motivated racism, climate change denial, opposition to state welfare, anti-semitism, cultural imperialism, creationism......
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Hate-filled Liar pokes his nose in

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:52 am

Email as just sent (I'm bothering with Sorensen again because he is falsely attacking somebody's post in this thread):

"Bob Sorensen's problem with Hate.

It makes him Lie and falsely Vilify people he has never met.
Amazingly this is real:
https://www.facebook.com/Piltdown.Superman
"Amazingly, this is real."
Well, sort of real.
But so too is THIS - the actual CONTEXT of Jon's remarks which Liar Bob Sorensen conveniently IGNORES on his rather Stalinist blog page:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3607
Jon was simply 'ape-ing' some rather extreme comments on the BCSE community forum by fellow YEC Issac Bourne. A place where Bob dares not show his 'face'. If Bob was not a LYING PROPAGANDIST HE WOULD NOT TAKE REMARKS THERE OUT OF CONTEXT IN ORDER TO DEMONISE. If.
I've got to break it to you Bob. Some Christians AGREE with 'atheist' objections to the blatant lying, hatred, hypocrisy, pseudo-science, pseudo-intellectualism, divisiveness, stereo-typing of opponents and general arrogance so often displayed by people like Cowboy Bob.
But it is slightly amusing the bigot Bob has assumed that Jon is an atheist because he detests young earth creationism. Perhaps it is because of this strapline: "Young Earth Creationism' allowing atheists to prove the Bible is wrong since 1961".
Perhaps you should ask Jon to explain it to you, Bob? My understanding, though I'm open to correction, is that he is Christian believer.
If somebody says YEC-ism helps atheists attack Christianity the person saying this 'must' be an 'atheopath' and a 'misotheist'.
Which fallacy is THAT one Bob? One of the fallacies that is 'OK'?"
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby Peter Henderson » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:17 am

I guess the 10 atheist


I'm not an Atheist.
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:13 am

Likewise.

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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:33 am

Seeing as Mr Bourne thinks he's so clever picking up my misspelling of "laissez-faire" (though he can't manage plurals if we're being picky) perhaps he'd like to take a crack at giving an answer to a real scientific question seeing as he's clearly following this thread at least?

"Why does the sequence stratigraphic model work? If the sediments deposited in basin are the product of a single global flood then why does a model that predicts multiple and sequential changes in environment based on fluctuations in sea level prove such a useful tool?"

What I can't tell is whether he didn't understand my argument or has deliberately misinterpreted it. Either way Mr Bourne owes me a new hypocrisy meter!
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Bob Sorensen vs Reality

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:39 am

Jon - in fact it was somebody else (not Bourne) on Bob's page who pointed out the laissez faire typo - and then Bob joined in as well (only after the other person pointed it out ie Bob appeared not to notice of his own accord).

And I now see that Bob has REMOVED his context-free lie about Jon supposedly attacking or stereotyping all Christians (just as I was about to take a screen photo of his propaganda for possible future use). Is this repentance? Or is it trying to cover his tracks after a lie went wrong (and he discovered that Jon was not an atheist after all)? I know which I think is the reality here.

Jon was probably rushing and made an error. Bob is a demented Liar attempting to hide the trail of his lying when it begins to cause him embarrassment (but I'm sure Peter, Jon and those who received my email WILL have seen Bob's shameful - or shameless - quote-mining before he hastily censored himself).

For those who missed it, ALL which was visible on Bob's screen photo on his facebook page was the words: "And all Christians are apologists for lasie fair capitalism, opposition to gun control, genocide, physical domestic abuse, rape within marriage, slavery, religiously motivated racism, climate change denial, opposition to state welfare, anti-semitism, cultural imperialism, creationism......" (or the first 'and' may have been obscured too). Thus Sorensen QUOTE-MINED Jon's post, pretending that it did not first quote words by Issac Bourne. You could not see whose words Bob was selectively quoting nor, more importantly, WHICH forum contained the words. Sorensen then triumphantly proclaimed "Amazingly, this is real." (Followed by an Over the Top speech - even by his standards and set in text that could not be cut and pasted otherwise I would have done so - about how awful atheopaths and misotheists are.)

If it was all so 'real' WHY has Bob now hidden it (without acknowledging any kind of error let alone attempted deception on his part)? Er - I think I know the Answer Sir! He's a Fraud and he also made a mistake but doesn't wanted his crazed followers to know.

Can Bob point us to a forum where atheopaths and misotheists (or compromiser Christians) are regularly spreading falsehoods and hate about opponents, and then hastily HIDING the evidence when somebody challenges them elsewhere on the internet (probably somebody who has been banned from commenting in the exact same place as where the atheopath or misotheist made their remarks)? Even if he can, it's funny how often the person behaving in this dishonest and hypocritical fashion is a self-proclaimed young earth creationist and 'Christian' rather than a 'lying atheist'.

This post is now final - nothing will be quietly added or silently deleted by myself at a later stage.
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Re: Issac vs Haworth part 2

Postby jon_12091 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:23 am

I just looked at the FB page and his comments on his own post - didn't see any others. Still can't check it now.

He's also wrong about laissez faire capitalism being about 'social Darwinism' seeing as it predates the publishing of the Origin of Species, and its subsequent hijacking by sociology, by at least a decade if not a century...

I also found his comments about 'damage to Christianity' gobsmacking in the face of his "Eternal Time Creation", which is just the Omphalos Hypothesis dressed up in some badly thought out new clothes. He is seriously leading Christian's to error by making God a deceiver. He is the first creationist I have felt compelled to pray is delivered from their error! (And for any Creationist's reading this even AiG think its not an argument to use.)
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