Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Creationist bloggers can be infuriating. If one has infuriated you by persisting in nonsense even when corrected, or refusing to reply to your criiticsm, you may feel driven to recording the fact. If so, you may register your disapproval here and hope a response is forthcoming.

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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby jon_12091 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:29 am

I don't think Ken and indeed a lot of creationists are bright enough to realise why some vocal, high-profile, atheists are making they kind of arguments they are and why they're so keen on a fight with creationism. Basically its betting the validity of the Bible on a demonstrable 6-day creation versus the corpus of human scientific knowledge (and Brian Cox's hair). And compared to a strait up God versus no God its easy because you can show absolutely that the claims of creation science are wrong and variously stupid and /or dishonest for good measure.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby cathy » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:32 pm

I don't think Ken and indeed a lot of creationists are bright enough to realise why some vocal, high-profile, atheists are making they kind of arguments they are and why they're so keen on a fight with creationism. Basically its betting the validity of the Bible on a demonstrable 6-day creation versus the corpus of human scientific knowledge (and Brian Cox's hair). And compared to a strait up God versus no God its easy because you can show absolutely that the claims of creation science are wrong and variously stupid and /or dishonest for good measure.

Which is the sole reason why RD and the other high profile atheists side with the literalists. They are easy meat and easy to use to ridicule christianity by suggesting that is how all christians should read it. The fact that Ken Ham and co don't see the irony of using RDs comments that it should be read literally is bizarre. If they find him so credible on how to read genesis why not on anything else? Ham can't really cherry pick which bits of RD he finds credible

Francis Collins and co would say it is (a) truth but (b) should not all be taken as literal, notably the opening chapters of Genesis.
Richard Dawkins and co would say it is (c) mostly falsehoods and myth but (d) should be taken as literal rather than figurative or purely spiritual ie that was the writers' intention and they believed, based on existing knowledge at the time plus 'inspiration from God', that what they set out in the opening chapters of Genesis was an accurate account of the Earth, universe and life first coming into existence at the hand and voice of God.

Except he doesn't believe in inspiration from God, doesn't seem to be aware of the context in which it was written or by whom and therefore really can't state whether it is or isn't literal rather than figurative. Plus he thinks it fiction and myth - is there a correct way to read fiction?

Are there no metaphors in fiction at all? When I re read Narnia to the kids when they were little I saw very clearly that it was supposed to be a metaphorical cruxifiction story. When I was little I just read it literally as the white witch killing Aslan. As I don't believe in Narnia or Aslan I can't really comment on which way was correct or state that the author meant it to be read one way or the other.

You cannot categorically state how people should read something you don't believe in - that is stupid.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:46 pm

I think Dawkins believes in CLAIMED inspiration from God.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:04 am

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/20350387 ... t-to-teach
Bill Nye's concluding point. That God rather than natural processes may have started life off on Earth around 3 bn years is not easily disproven. But that a 6,000/10,000 year old Earth IS easily disproven.

So now I'll check to see what Ken Ham has come out with when flagging this on his Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/aigkenham

Ah yes.

"So if you say millions of years and evolution is fact, and thousands of years is not true enough times--does that make it true? Well, that's Bill Nye's method of teaching and critical thinking! Watch this video and you will hear Bill Nye say the same thing over and over--but with absolutely no evidence--just his usual --say it enough and i hope people will believe it."

Typical evasive YEC garbage. There is PLENTY of evidence, even if Nye could not mention this in detail to an excitable interviewer Ken - and YOU KNOW IT.

So if you say millions of years and evolution are fiction, and thousands of years is true, enough times - does that make them true? Well, that's Ken Ham's method of teaching and critical thinking.

Whilst a debate with YEC enemies of science would have been fascinating, Mr Nye was probably wise to avoid one. YECs have NO scientific answer AT ALL for their position. Just dogma and smokescreens.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE EVIDENCE YOU FUNDIE. Stop trespassing into science and stick with the Bible.
Last edited by a_haworthroberts on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:17 am

Unless you're a young Earth creationist you can't explain what happened in the US yesterday (at least that's what he said when I heard him speak when he was over here in August) ?

What utter piffle Ashley.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:24 am

There are loads of ranting comments underneath the link (a critical one by a 'Glenn' has been censored).

The fact that loads of people have (usually) CHOSEN to be brainwashed against science by people like Ken Ham proves nothing. They bang on about 'true science' or 'real science' and DEMONISE people like Mr Nye - but they run a mile when asked to consider the actual evidence in a scientific manner. Science is about what the evidence confirms or dispels - NOT about what you WANT to be true, or what used to be THOUGHT true centuries ago.

Disgusting.

Yes, I mean YOU.

SCIENCE DENIERS AND DELUDED LIARS AND FANTASISTS TO A MAN - OR WOMAN.

Meanwhile somebody on the CMI website ALMOST got things right: "If evolution was "God's method of creation" as theistic-evolutionists would have us believe, then God created the universe so that it looks as if it came into existence by itself without the need of a creator or any kind of external agent. It follows that, if theistic-evolutionists are correct, then the God of the Bible must indeed be a duplicitous and capricious deity because, after creating the world to make it look as if there is no God, he still holds people accountable for knowing of his existence and attributes from observing the creation itself (c.f. Romans 1:18-20)".

Of course, the rational conclusion is that God IS a deceiver because the real world, when examined scientifically and without religious bias, and scripture DON'T match. But of course no YEC will carry on down THAT route.
Last edited by a_haworthroberts on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:27 am

Peter Henderson wrote:Unless you're a young Earth creationist you can't explain what happened in the US yesterday (at least that's what he said when I heard him speak when he was over here in August) ?

What utter piffle Ashley.


But at least when he talks about this kind of tragedy (I've not read his piece) he's not trespassing upon science and denying facts and arguing for disproven 'facts'.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:00 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:
Peter Henderson wrote:Unless you're a young Earth creationist you can't explain what happened in the US yesterday (at least that's what he said when I heard him speak when he was over here in August) ?

What utter piffle Ashley.


But at least when he talks about this kind of tragedy (I've not read his piece) he's not trespassing upon science and denying facts and arguing for disproven 'facts'.


Well, he did say that if a Christian believes in "millions of years" they can't explain death and suffering in a "fallen" world, so that would be trespassing on science to an extent Ashley.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:32 am

Fair enough (your reply I mean).
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:01 pm

Interesting that Revelation TV have mentioned the Rev. Nicky Gumbel's appearence on the one show last night on their Facebook page today.

As far as I'm aware, Gumbel rejects young Earth creationism and would be labelled a Christian compromiser by Ham and MacKay.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:40 pm

Who on earth is "Dr Skip Skipper ?

http://creation.com/microbiologist-skipper

Somehow, I doubt evolutionary biology teaches this:

“Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.”7


Is evolution a scientific issue supported by objective data? Dr Skipper: “I think not, as do many others as well in the scientific community and especially the general public.”


Well, the general public's view on science is totally irrelevant.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:07 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:Who on earth is "Dr Skip Skipper ?

http://creation.com/microbiologist-skipper
Hmm, an expert on symbiotic microorganisms. Am I right in thinking that such present yet another problem for the Noah enthusiasts? Did the ark have to have beds of clover etc. that were maintained, uneaten and complete with bacteria, for a year? Oh, and what's the baraminology of microorganisms like? Was there just the one "invisible" kind?
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:27 am

Peter Henderson wrote:Interesting that Revelation TV have mentioned the Rev. Nicky Gumbel's appearence on the one show last night on their Facebook page today.

As far as I'm aware, Gumbel rejects young Earth creationism and would be labelled a Christian compromiser by Ham and MacKay.



I don't think that the Rev'd Dr Clive Calver (formerly an Evangelical Alliance leader, who is now a senior pastor near to Newtown and who I saw interviewed on BBC TV News after he kept vigil with parents of the deceased children while they were still officially classed as 'missing') is a YEC or OEC: http://continentalnews.net/2012/12/16/c ... 13828.html
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:48 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:
Peter Henderson wrote:Interesting that Revelation TV have mentioned the Rev. Nicky Gumbel's appearence on the one show last night on their Facebook page today.

As far as I'm aware, Gumbel rejects young Earth creationism and would be labelled a Christian compromiser by Ham and MacKay.



I don't think that the Rev'd Dr Clive Calver (formerly an Evangelical Alliance leader, who is now a senior pastor near to Newtown and who I saw interviewed on BBC TV News after he kept vigil with parents of the deceased children while they were still officially classed as 'missing') is a YEC or OEC: http://continentalnews.net/2012/12/16/c ... 13828.html


I heard him speak at a Youth For Christ gathering (he was then head of YFC) many years ago along Graham Kendrick (Kendick did the singing/led the praise) and neither mentiuoned it then. It's hard to tell Ashley. They could be YECs and simply don't say anything.

I think Gumbel was asked and I'm sure he's said he rejected it. It's one of the reasons why Cecil Andrews questions the Alpha course and urges Christians to avoid it (Andrews makes reference to the fact that Gumbel accepts evolution), though it's generally pushed in most Presbyterian congregations (my own incuded).

Then again, as one PCinI minister (a YEC) said to me, Cecil's definition of a Christian is very narrow indeed.
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Re: Rabble rouser Ken Ham and his biased Facebook fans

Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:35 am

Revelation TV are pushing Rev. Nicky Gumbel's appearance on the one show on their Facebook page again today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gwkN_-JUg#!

They seem unaware that Ham and MacKay would call him a Christian compromiser !
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