UKIP on climate change.

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UKIP on climate change.

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon May 26, 2014 8:21 pm

I assume UKIP are climate change sceptics ?

With a majority of MEPs in England now UKIP, could this affect any EU environmental legislation e.g. CO2 emissions ?
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue May 27, 2014 2:38 pm

Peter Henderson wrote:I assume UKIP are climate change sceptics ?

With a majority of MEPs in England now UKIP, could this affect any EU environmental legislation e.g. CO2 emissions ?


Well "Lord" Christopher Monckton of UKIP is a leading global warming denier and the party has said it wants to ban teaching of climate change in schools.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed May 28, 2014 5:37 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:Well "Lord" Christopher Monckton of UKIP is a leading global warming denier and the party has said it wants to ban teaching of climate change in schools.
Hell's teeth, Roger! I can imagine nationalist economists saying "after China" but banning from schools? Have you a link, please? Maybe we had better have a look at their attitude to evolution?
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed May 28, 2014 7:05 pm

Brian Jordan wrote:
Roger Stanyard wrote:Well "Lord" Christopher Monckton of UKIP is a leading global warming denier and the party has said it wants to ban teaching of climate change in schools.
Hell's teeth, Roger! I can imagine nationalist economists saying "after China" but banning from schools? Have you a link, please? Maybe we had better have a look at their attitude to evolution?


http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2014/0 ... -platform/
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed May 28, 2014 9:10 pm

Oh dear, some of the comments read just like creationist prevarication. As for the central claim, it looks as though they have indeed a denialist element in a position of influence. I don't think we can wait for them to mature from being a rather shambolic collection, we could do to know whether they're into to evolution denial as well.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Wed May 28, 2014 10:22 pm

Hm UKIP have gained a groundswell of support but I suspect 80% of their voters haven't a clue what their actual policies are. They work in pandering to fears and cheap, simple sound bites. Like all good sound bites they mask real issues. Farage, like Boris, comes across a an affable, cheeky chappie which successfully hides the nastiness of UKIP. Miliband is totally useless and ineffectual, and comes across like Wallace without Grommet. Evil lib dem liar Clegg committed political suicide by being so openly dishonest and failing to even dent the worse excesses of the Tories in things that matter like health, education, welfare ( food banks anyone). So I'm afraid UKIP are a viable threat not a joke anymore. And I suspect climate change denial and more than a smidgen of creationism will ensue.

I had a quick look at the rest of that Index magazine and was appalled to see that, alongside real fights for democracy and free speech, it was against the banning of the pro rape Blurred Lines on university campuses. Not quite the same really tsk tsk. Particularly as no mention made of the feminist parody riposte defined lines being initially baned by you tube.

Plus wasn't sure about its take on Leveson. Surely the right not to have private calls to your dead daughter hacked means as much as free speech :( Magazine looks good but needs to understand grey areas.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu May 29, 2014 9:01 am

cathy wrote:Hm UKIP have gained a groundswell of support but I suspect 80% of their voters haven't a clue what their actual policies are. They work in pandering to fears and cheap, simple sound bites. Like all good sound bites they mask real issues. Farage, like Boris, comes across a an affable, cheeky chappie which successfully hides the nastiness of UKIP. Miliband is totally useless and ineffectual, and comes across like Wallace without Grommet. Evil lib dem liar Clegg committed political suicide by being so openly dishonest and failing to even dent the worse excesses of the Tories in things that matter like health, education, welfare ( food banks anyone). So I'm afraid UKIP are a viable threat not a joke anymore. And I suspect climate change denial and more than a smidgen of creationism will ensue.

I had a quick look at the rest of that Index magazine and was appalled to see that, alongside real fights for democracy and free speech, it was against the banning of the pro rape Blurred Lines on university campuses. Not quite the same really tsk tsk. Particularly as no mention made of the feminist parody riposte defined lines being initially baned by you tube.

Plus wasn't sure about its take on Leveson. Surely the right not to have private calls to your dead daughter hacked means as much as free speech :( Magazine looks good but needs to understand grey areas.


It doesn't surprise me at all that there is a huge protest vote against the established political system but UKIP's "success" looks a bit like that of the wingnut right in the USA. They can stop others but can't actually wield power themselves. They've no mandate to do so. Only 9% of the electorate voted for UKIP last week. UKIP controls not a single local council and doesn't have a single MP. It has no workable policies to stop immigration nor any "plan" as to how the UK would relate to the EU if we pulled out of the latter. Nor, as far as I can make out, does it have an coherent policies on anything else, no machine for policy making and no proper organisation or party machine.

I've actually done a fair amount of work as a political agent and note that, in effect, UKIP (in my area) was conspicuous by its absence from the hustings last week. No leaflets through the door, no activists on the streets, no party members at the election booths. Indeed, it had no candidates for local the local elections (at least in the 2 wards I dealt with). It looked to me to be the party of the old and the inarticulate. Nigel Farage may act like the average bloke in a pub but the pubs are empty these days.

So, I don't think UKIP is going to be a serious threat to science education. The US wingnuts and fundamentalists may try to "expolit" and "influence" it for their own ends but most US wingnuts and fundamentalists don't even know where the UK is on a map of the world.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby jon_12091 » Thu May 29, 2014 11:17 am

At least across he border UKIP representatives were being asked to explain which 'barmy EU legislation' they wanted to stop/repeal, but none of them could actually name anything specific.

Hopefully UKIP MEP's will be too busy trying to abolish themselves to meddle elsewhere and I've also heard it said on the radio that they're seldom seen in the chamber...
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

jon_12091 wrote:At least across he border UKIP representatives were being asked to explain which 'barmy EU legislation' they wanted to stop/repeal, but none of them could actually name anything specific.

Hopefully UKIP MEP's will be too busy trying to abolish themselves to meddle elsewhere and I've also heard it said on the radio that they're seldom seen in the chamber...


Yer, that's why they come over as a bunch of amateurs. For what it is worth, no-one has explianed to me how EU regulations and laws can be ignored if the UK leaves the EU. See Norway; it has adopted the lot and pretty well rigourously enforces them. It gets no funding from the EU, pays through the nose into the EU budget and, of course, has no representation at all in Brussels or the EU parliament.

Worse still, one wonders how the UK can stop immigration from EU member states given that millions of British citizens live on the mainland of Europe; indeed, near on 10% of the population of the Republic of Ireland are British citizens.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Brian Jordan » Thu May 29, 2014 3:07 pm

Here's a nice video debunking the meeja's false "balance" re anthropogenic climate change.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2014/may/23/john-oliver-best-climate-debate-ever
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Thu May 29, 2014 3:43 pm

I've actually done a fair amount of work as a political agent and note that, in effect, UKIP (in my area) was conspicuous by its absence from the hustings last week. No leaflets through the door, no activists on the streets, no party members at the election booths. Indeed, it had no candidates for local the local elections (at least in the 2 wards I dealt with). It looked to me to be the party of the old and the inarticulate. Nigel Farage may act like the average bloke in a pub but the pubs are empty these days.

Maybe in Winchester but here in Redditch they had a huge presence. Until the last week they were the only leaflets I'd had and up until the end theirs were the only billboards. Tho one was set alight, which was heartening.

They aren't going after the educated, relatively comfy Southern vote, but they are winning with the intellectually challenged and those who are too lazy to think as well. Don't underestimate their appeal to the hard of thinking and the dispossessed and those for whom the recession hasn't really ended.

They gained two seats out of 29 on the council and in many areas they took second place. In my ward (depressingly Tory) they beat labour by 11 votes to take second.

And almost less then a week after taking those two seats it looks like UKIP has had to suspend at least one of them already.
A UKIP councillor has been suspended by his party over claims he made racist and homophobic comments on Facebook.

Dave Small, who was elected to Redditch Borough Council's Church Hill ward on Friday, now faces a disciplinary hearing.

It is alleged Mr Small called African migrants "scroungers" and Clare Balding and Sir Elton John "perverts" because of their sexualities.


They may be loonies and they may not appeal to the educated but they do have a following among the disadvantaged. And I can see what they are doing, sharp meaningless sound bites that play on people's very real concerns. Just had coffee with friends, including a nurse whose horror stories following four years of cuts were genuinely terrifying, and discussed the state of our local hospital (deteriorating rapidly), schools and elderly care systems. And the comment I never expected to hear was made, you could never vote for UKIP cos they're loonies but you can see why people would find some of their thinking attractive. Especially when you are perhaps waiting in the hospital that is falling apart under the strain. It may be falling apart due to cuts but that is a harder arguments than UKIPS easy fixes about Bulgarians nicking your operation space.

So unless the other parties actually call them out on their nonsense and expose it for what it is rather than lurching rightwards and taking up the anti immigration banner along with them, UKIP are in with a frighteningly real chance. Even if it is as the Tories new coalition partners. They may have no sane policies but they have something more appealing, quick easy to digest crap and that is the sort of attack the other parties need.

I will admit that I am scared of them gaining a bigger foothold.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Thu May 29, 2014 3:59 pm

Yer, that's why they come over as a bunch of amateurs. For what it is worth, no-one has explianed to me how EU regulations and laws can be ignored if the UK leaves the EU. See Norway; it has adopted the lot and pretty well rigourously enforces them. It gets no funding from the EU, pays through the nose into the EU budget and, of course, has no representation at all in Brussels or the EU parliament.

Worse still, one wonders how the UK can stop immigration from EU member states given that millions of British citizens live on the mainland of Europe; indeed, near on 10% of the population of the Republic of Ireland are British citizens.

I doubt UKIP is going after the voters that would think that much. Nor know enough to think that much. They are going for the people whose children are in schools where English is rarely the main language. And the people who are struggling to get social care and whose NHS is falling apart. They aren't going to use sophisticated arguments about reality and facts when they know it would be wasted on those listening.

A lot of us are fairly ignorant of the issues surrounding Europe, mainly cos until UKIP started banging on about it, it was rarely on anyone's radar of things to get worked up about. It used to be bottom of polls on what was important, well below NHS, education etc. If there were a referendum tomorrow there would need to be a hell of a lot of explaining of what you've said.

UKIP know their audience and pander to it. Even to the extent of recognising a lot of voters will not be racist these days and therefore controlling even that element of their public. if not private, face. The people voting for them know diddly squat about what he EU does beyond what it costs and know even less about the complexities of immigration/emigration. They do know the horror stories tho, the odd exceptions that don't prove the rules. Don't underestimate UKIP. A lot will be a protest vote and hopefully the main parties will take notice and start to do something. But they need to start wheedling out the nastier of UKIP polices and soon. There is only a year realistically. Calling them out on things like racism etc has failed miserably. But nobody has actually tried to find out their policies on other things.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu May 29, 2014 6:16 pm

cathy wrote:

A lot of us are fairly ignorant of the issues surrounding Europe, mainly cos until UKIP started banging on about it, it was rarely on anyone's radar of things to get worked up about. It used to be bottom of polls on what was important, well below NHS, education etc. If there were a referendum tomorrow there would need to be a hell of a lot of explaining of what you've said.

The EU has consistently over the years been a low down on the list of issues that concern voters. The game they are playing is simply blaming everything on Rotten Jonny Foreigner.

Still, you've gotta have a larf sometimes and the bunch of halfwit and ageing crackpot tories and inarticulate non-bodies that back it are an endless source of entertainment. See past postings here by Tony Bennett to get the point.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Thu May 29, 2014 8:57 pm

I had to laugh when I saw one of our two new UKIP councilors, in office less than a week, is already in trouble with his UKIP masters for being too racist ha ha. What a glorious start to running the bin collections and other local council things.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Fri May 30, 2014 9:19 am

cathy wrote:Maybe in Winchester but here in Redditch they had a huge presence. Until the last week they were the only leaflets I'd had and up until the end theirs were the only billboards. Tho one was set alight, which was heartening.

They aren't going after the educated, relatively comfy Southern vote, but they are winning with the intellectually challenged and those who are too lazy to think as well. Don't underestimate their appeal to the hard of thinking and the dispossessed and those for whom the recession hasn't really ended.



Comments which, of course, identify the two huge problems facing the UK - growing inequality and economic geography. It's London and the towns and cities in its orbit (basically withing about 70 miles or so of central London) that have benefited most from proximity to Europe; the problem manifests itself in the SNP but that addresses the problem for Scotland, not the solution for the UK. It is no accident that UKIP did badly in London and towns like Winchester.
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