UKIP on climate change.

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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:48 am

magnocrat wrote:The purpose of the press is to entertain not inform. Entertainment sells information bores. Education is something many were glad to leave behind at school , except these days many are unwillingly forced to stay on. Educationalists need to come to terms with the fact that a solid majority are not interested in mind expansion. Do you remember Mr Blair 'education education education. Adults who themselves hated education sort to force it on their children not for the sake of education but with their eyes on finacial gain. Johnny is upstairs doing his homework while Mum and Dad watch the soaps eating crisps. They have his future at heart as they munch away little knowing he is playing on his computer.


This is just opinionated rubbish. "the press" both informs and entertains. Unless, of course, if you exclude the Financial Times, The Economict, The Independent, the Guardian, the times, the huge trade and professional press. Sure, "huge majority" is not interest in "mind expansion" which accounts for some 42% of young people taking degrees and most staying on at school until 18. Likes, it accounts for some 70% of the young population of South Korea heading into higher education.

The resr of what you write is incomprensibe. You should try getting a degree rather than lecturing everyone about the lack of intellectual curiosity of the population at large.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby magnocrat » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:20 pm

You and I come from a different world. You see a rosy garden watered by education filled with thursty plants eager to advance the cause of science. I see a planet torn by greed and corruption where an elite few hold most of the wealth. A planet on the brink of drastic climatic change which could devastate the human population.
You remind me of long ago when I stood in church with my mother singing , All things bright and beautiful.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:52 pm

An elite few do hold most of the wealth. That is not the fault of education but ignorance. The Sun reader doesn't actually know enough to care about tax avoidance or it's effects on things like social justice. The more educated somebody is the more likely they are to both know that and to make the connections to the bigger picture.

Ignorance maintains the status quo and injustice, not education.

I might have been glad to leave school but not education! I wanted to leave not because of what I learnt but because of rules and religion. I don't munch away on crisp tho I'm sure my kids do play on computers more than they should. I chose my children's schools carefully and they were/are given huge opportunities beyond the classroom by those schools. From sport to Bollywood dancing and music and drama. They were also pushed to consider the plights of others. Most schools these days involve their pupils in charities in some form or other. School kids involve themselves in campaigns to change things all the time. All under the umbrella of education. Schools have changed a lot.

Look at the popularity of programmes hosted by scientists and naturalists. They suggest people aren't that disinterested. Soaps are light relief. Don't watch any now but was once addicted to Eastenders. Didn't make me thick. Didn't remove my education.

I don't think you're totally wrong. There are Sun readers after all. But I think you're way overgeneralising.

IQ is simply a means of comparison. Like height. It should never be used to deny people opportunities tho.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby magnocrat » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:39 am

Thanks for your interesting and balanced reply. The popular press and television largely entertain the public. The process of learning is tough and far less likely to be followed than the easy way out.
I have seen students download pages of stuff from the net clip it together and hand it in.
I have seen an heard Muslim girls say they joined college to hang out with Muslim youths to deceive
their parents. The human being is very resourceful and when the government channels everyone into college they find ways of roughing the storm. Just as they side-step healthy eating and embrace obesity. We need to encourage those who want to study and channel them into what their abilities an cope with.
While on the subject the popular press often have an insideous hidden message wrapped up in innocent entertaining stories. They know they can form public opinion with a picture of a man having fifteen children in council accomodation on the dole. Hence Ukip becomes popular.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:05 pm

Not quite sure what your objections to entertainment are. It's not an either or. My kids like towie, top gear, snog, marry, avoid and other dross as well as things like Brian Cox or David Attenborough. They're doing well at school/university. They read loads etc. The process of learning does not preclude down time. When I was doing my finals we rushed home to watch Pingu. After trying to stuff your head full of information a badly behaved penguin with limited language skills was what we needed. Plus entertainment isn't all dumbed down dross. There are some brilliant dramas and films and books out there.

I'm not sure what you mean by the govt channeling everyone into education. You now have to remain in education or training till 18 but it doesn't have to be academic. Tho apprenticeships vary. Gove did have a very specific 1950s vision for education and his cuts made it difficult to cater to the needs of the less able students in compulsory education who benefitted from a mix of academic and vocational. But it hit lots of things. The requirement to remain in college till 18 was accompanied by cuts in sixth form funding which has hit practical subjects like science very hard. You will appreciate that year 7 chemistry practices are way cheaper than A level ones! But in theory the idea of training or education beyond 16 was sound if funding had been sufficient.

I'm not sure of the relevance of embracing obesity? That's the choice of parents I'm afraid. My girls are miles from obese. They're all healthy normal sized because they weren't given the choice to eat rubbish all the time. That is due in part to education. There were tons if talks at various mother and baby groups about feeding children healthily. It wasn't rocket science. People choose to ignore it but that's their choice.

By the popular press I'm guessing you mean the Scum and the Daily Fail. Not sure how you tackle that because it's entertainment with a nasty Murdoch agenda. Again education and campaigning seem to be the only chances. GCSE English language now tackles styles of writing and propaganda. Campaigns like Hacked Off and No More Page Three have taken on Murdoch where politicians have failed thru fear. They educate in a way, by telling people why things are wrong and helping them see the bigger picture. They have had limited success in keeping Murdoch at bay and protecting more neutral news sources.

All in all I'm not sure I understand what points you're trying to make other than an anti education AND entertainment agenda.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Brian Jordan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:58 pm

cathy wrote:The process of learning does not preclude down time. When I was doing my finals we rushed home to watch Pingu. After trying to stuff your head full of information a badly behaved penguin with limited language skills was what we needed.
The process of working, too. I remember that for a while Pingu coincided with one of the coffee breaks at work and people rushed to synchronise their break with Pingu!
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby magnocrat » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:57 pm

No I'm not anti education or entertainment I just want all of us to look carefully at human nature.M My premise is simple and I live with it, most people avoid hardwork and endeavour to attain an east life. A few enjoy interlectual pursuits they read The Guardian and watch David Attenborough. Another small minority force themselves to study for untimate gain. It doesn't matter what you or I think what matters is just what is the common denominator of human nature. The reason: that is what makes the world tick and just listen to the news its all there. Now there are those who say we are making progress , certainly we are technologically but thats no good without moral progress.
' If we can find the money to make weapons to kill poeple, then we can find the money to care for them' late Tony Benn
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby cathy » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:50 pm

I thought we were making some moral progress. Don't hear racist or sexist jokes of tv any more. Gay people can get married whereas 50 years ago it was a criminal offence. Rape and sexual assault are now taken seriously and no boss can grope me. They're all signs of progress. Race hate is a crime. And creationism is seen as the joke it is.

Still a long way to go obviously. Still too much of who not what you know. Murdoch got away with everything cos he 'knew nothing' about his vile little papers, as did Rebecca Brooks. HSBC helped the super rich avoid all moral responsibilities to humanity as did others. And bankers are still @@@@@@@@ on the rest of us from a great height. Then of course there is IS, Isreal bombing Gaza, the shooting of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, Putin etc. And of course those who read about that pop on their goodie/baddie polarising specs and start blaming people who are nothing to do with those events for them. They're all bad but not particularly new to human history.

So yet again I'm not sure of your points.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:29 am

magnocrat wrote:You and I come from a different world. You see a rosy garden watered by education filled with thursty plants eager to advance the cause of science. I see a planet torn by greed and corruption where an elite few hold most of the wealth. A planet on the brink of drastic climatic change which could devastate the human population.
You remind me of long ago when I stood in church with my mother singing , All things bright and beautiful.


This is absolute garbage.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:33 am

magnocrat wrote:No I'm not anti education or entertainment I just want all of us to look carefully at human nature.M My premise is simple and I live with it, most people avoid hardwork and endeavour to attain an east life. A few enjoy interlectual pursuits they read The Guardian and watch David Attenborough. Another small minority force themselves to study for untimate gain. It doesn't matter what you or I think what matters is just what is the common denominator of human nature. The reason: that is what makes the world tick and just listen to the news its all there. Now there are those who say we are making progress , certainly we are technologically but thats no good without moral progress.


This is an insult to anyone's intelligence.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby magnocrat » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:12 pm

Laird Wilcox identifies 21 alleged traits of a political extremist; a serious one is a tendancy to name call and substitute intimidation for argument. We would all do well to remind ourselves of his expert views.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby magnocrat » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:32 pm

Well Cathy we tend to look through western eyes and we are rich and lucky at the moment. The Greeks may not agree and those at the food banks or sleeping rough in the fourth richest country in the world. The desperate boat people drowning to escape into rich Europe or the 30,000 who starve each day. The women who suffer in Arabia, oppressed, down trodden for centuries. Steven Pinker believes his detailed analysis proves we are less violent in the last fifty years I hope he is right , and if he is thats some progress. We are self-aware beings with consciences but we are also driven by self interest. I believe that self interest is the huge evolutionary baggage that Mr Pinker poinrs out we carry. Unless we can shake loose we may loose control. Everything in the garden is not rosy.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:34 pm

magnocrat wrote: I believe that self interest is the huge evolutionary baggage that Mr Pinker poinrs out we carry.
Rubbish. When did you last see a documentary showing a self-sacrificing lion going hungry rather than pull down Bambi, or similar? Where is your tree diagram showing self-interest increasing with evolution? Human beings like other primates are social animals and have evolved to cooperate with each other. Unfortunately we haven't evolved beyond tribalism so we cooperate mainly within our tribes and are prone to attacking other tribes. Hopefully as we evolve further our tribalism will become broader and looser and less aggressive.
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:30 am

magnocrat wrote:Laird Wilcox identifies 21 alleged traits of a political extremist; a serious one is a tendancy to name call and substitute intimidation for argument. We would all do well to remind ourselves of his expert views.


Well, obviously, nobody in this group has thought about extremism. Even though the BCSE is dedicated to fighting religious extremism in the form of creationism and its politicisation. You obviously know a lot better than everyone else here. Prescisely why is that?
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Re: UKIP on climate change.

Postby jon_12091 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:43 pm

Accidentally caught a bit of an RT news package on climate change denial - which mainly seemed to be taking a pop at the Republican parties apparent requirement that candidates have to sign up to climate change denialism 'statement of faith', but also featured Lord Monkcton spouting nonsense. Don't know if it was old stuff recycled or new footage.
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