A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby Brian Jordan » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:08 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:https://www.facebook.com/events/593173124026658/
'When was the ice age in Biblical history?'
Never.

Next question?
And my next question is, "when do the creationists say it was? And how long did it last?" Easier than getting involved with their chat or wading through reams of drivel. My guess: in time for the Arctic and Antarctic animals to feel at home after walking the Ark's gangplank. Noah wouldn't have wanted them to get their tootsies burned on their way home. So it must have lasted about long enough for a penguin to stagger a quarter of the Earth's circumference. Which I estimate about 100 days, if nonstop. (40,000km/4)/(4km/hrx24hr). There you are, Creation Mathematics. :twisted:
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:11 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:https://www.facebook.com/events/593173124026658/
'When was the ice age in Biblical history?'
Never.

Next question?
And my next question is, "when do the creationists say it was? And how long did it last?" Easier than getting involved with their chat or wading through reams of drivel. My guess: in time for the Arctic and Antarctic animals to feel at home after walking the Ark's gangplank. Noah wouldn't have wanted them to get their tootsies burned on their way home. So it must have lasted about long enough for a penguin to stagger a quarter of the Earth's circumference. Which I estimate about 100 days, if nonstop. (40,000km/4)/(4km/hrx24hr). There you are, Creation Mathematics. :twisted:



My link was to the following notice: "Don't miss the chance to chat live chat with the author of "When Was the Ice Age in Biblical History?"
Visit us next Tuesday, April 16, from 2-3 PM EDT.
Mike Matthews is looking forward to answering your questions and responding to comments on our wall!"

YECs normally insist there was a single 'ice age' for around 500 years just after Noah's Flood. They fit this into the Bible (because ice age glaciations really happen) but cannot in similar manner fit a gap of millions of years into the opening three verses of Genesis 1 - because that would mess up theology by suggesting the creation contained suffering and death from the start, just like it does now.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:51 am

http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-ans ... n-campaign
"Evolutionists cannot point to any genetic mechanism that could add the information necessary for the upward process of molecules-to-man evolution".
LIAR FOR JESUS.
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P Z Myers and the YEC ice age

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:43 pm

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... the-bible/
YEC-ism? Wilful ignorance, and rejection of accumulated knowledge about the history of our planet - for JESUS. I just hope that he's grateful for all of AiG's efforts (well, to be honest here, I hope he's not).
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Re: David Catchpoole used to be a scientist ...

Postby a_haworthroberts » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:14 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:... But then became an anti-science bigot for Jesus.

My message to the zealots at CMI:

"
http://creation.com/twice-as-wrong-and-more

Crude, clumsy and unconvincing propaganda, David C. You hate science.

Would you care to explain why God allowed the huge anomalocaridid shrimps to go 'recently' extinct, when other shrimps are alive and well.

Of course you wouldn't which is why somebody will censor this comment and probably not even forward it to you.

Are you never ashamed of spouting the nonsense (for Jesus) which you once rightly detested (when you were already a converted Christian)?

People like you are a disgrace."



I have just submitted another comment relating to this Catchpoole piece of drivel.

"
http://creation.com/twice-as-wrong-and-more

David

I have seen the comment by William I, above. All your response does is witter about presuppositions, starting assumptions and creationist publications. You presuppose, assume, and believe by faith (without corroborating evidence) that Genesis is infallible, full, and recent history of planet Earth. Thus you MUST interpret the fossil record as being caused by 'Noah's Flood' and thus all around 4,300 years' old - the date you assign to this imaginary, impossible, worldwide and hill-covering inundation. Despite a wealth of real evidence to the contrary. Thus you ARE guessing, guessing wildly. Just as William suggested.

I have just submitted the following comment on the recent Shaun Doyle piece which you are particularly flagging to William:
"
http://creation.com/flood-geology-secular-catastrophism
"Can we seriously say that after only ~30 years of serious reassessment of Lyell’s hold on geology?" Yes, we seriously can. It is far more common to see the effects of slow deposition and erosion.
"And we would of course dispute the notion that slow and gradual is the norm in the rock record." Of course you would! That's because you are anti-science - because you insist that Bible dogma must 'trump' conflicting science (and there is an awful lot of science which conflicts with Genesis).
"we believe the Bible is the only self-attesting foundation for knowledge about the past, while the assumptions that ground deep time are internally inconsistent". Both your beliefs as stated are false.
"the mere fact we write rebuttal articles at all suggests we don’t simply cite studies that support our views". It suggests the opposite to me. You receive criticism because you cherry pick - and that is why you have to write 'rebuttal articles' (or else pretend you never received the criticism).
"The biblical framework is very different from anything you’ll find in the secular literature. It really is a different way of thinking about the rocks ...". Yes, a way which is unscientific, and dogmatically so."

IF the people at CMI who first read submitted comments such as this one are not cowards (even towards comments from people like me who may have been 'blacklisted' for consistently being 'critical' of CMI articles) they will let you SEE this response (my second on this piece of clumsy propaganda by the way). And if they do, you may have either the courage to print it and try to refute it - or instead the lack of courage that will cause you to censor it."
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:23 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:
Brian Jordan wrote:
a_haworthroberts wrote:https://www.facebook.com/events/593173124026658/
'When was the ice age in Biblical history?'
Never.

Next question?
And my next question is, "when do the creationists say it was? And how long did it last?" Easier than getting involved with their chat or wading through reams of drivel. My guess: in time for the Arctic and Antarctic animals to feel at home after walking the Ark's gangplank. Noah wouldn't have wanted them to get their tootsies burned on their way home. So it must have lasted about long enough for a penguin to stagger a quarter of the Earth's circumference. Which I estimate about 100 days, if nonstop. (40,000km/4)/(4km/hrx24hr). There you are, Creation Mathematics. :twisted:



My link was to the following notice: "Don't miss the chance to chat live chat with the author of "When Was the Ice Age in Biblical History?"
Visit us next Tuesday, April 16, from 2-3 PM EDT.
Mike Matthews is looking forward to answering your questions and responding to comments on our wall!"

YECs normally insist there was a single 'ice age' for around 500 years just after Noah's Flood. They fit this into the Bible (because ice age glaciations really happen) but cannot in similar manner fit a gap of millions of years into the opening three verses of Genesis 1 - because that would mess up theology by suggesting the creation contained suffering and death from the start, just like it does now.



Some very interesting (assuming they are accurate) comments/threads by one Frank Pettit* regarding this Answers Magazine Facebook Page 'Live Chat' on 'When was the Ice Age [singular] in Biblical history?' (see also the thread lower down the page started by Answers Magazine). (And the second link mentions Pettit being banned by fellow YEC fundamentalist Ray Comfort in January.)
https://www.facebook.com/events/593173124026658/
https://www.facebook.com/frank.pettit.3 ... ion=stream

And a recent critique of the original AiG Answers Magazine article about the 'Ice Age' by a more sensible and realistic Christian:
http://geochristian.wordpress.com/tag/ice-age/ (the full article can be read here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... al-history)
"Answers in Genesis recently published an article by Andrew Snelling and Mike Matthews entitled “When Was the Ice Age in Biblical History?” It begins with a true statement: “The Bible doesn’t say, ‘And then there was an Ice Age.’” If the authors had stopped right there, they would have written a great article. The Bible does not teach us about ice ages any more than it teaches us about genetics or chemistry. But they did continue, and the result is another bad answer from Answers in Genesis. As blogger James McGrath noted in regards to this article: "I continue to wonder whether the folks at AiG are working to make Christianity look as foolish as possible, even while claiming their aim is to promote it";
"The geological problems that confront the YEC ice age scenarios are the same as those that plague all of YEC flood geology: Too many events, too little time."

Not sure how long the 'live chat' lasted [edit - around an hour] but I can see very few responses by Mike Matthews/Answers Magazine. Though I've just spotted further questions here: https://www.facebook.com/AnswersMagazine?filter=2



* There's a short academic profile of him here: http://www.mimg.ucla.edu/faculty/miller ... eople.html
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:46 am

https://www.facebook.com/AnswersMagazine?filter=2
Question by Paul Burnett:
"If the Ice Age Live Chat Tuesday runs out of questions, here are few to contemplate:
Long Island in New York is a moraine, a pile of rocks carried by glaciers during the Ice Age. How could glaciers move fast enough to push all those rocks to form Long Island in a bit over a century, minus the time it takes for snow to fall, ice to compact, and the ice sheet to melt away afterwards? How fast was the ice sheet moving that formed Long Island?"

Answer from Mike Matthews:
"Hi Paul, I love the moraines in Long Island, too. They're cool. From the perspective of geologists who believe in a young earth and a global flood, catastrophic events and earth movements of the past were on a scale unlike anything we see today. The present (alone) is not the key to understanding the past. -Mike"

And from another Matthews 'response':
"Actually, the article embraces the data that we find in the world, and we are very excited to have a better understanding of our Creator's handiwork at this stage in history; we just know that the events occurred in decades or centuries, not millions of years. So many assumptions about time (like multiple ice ages) are just advances and retreats of the same Ice Age, etc. The explanations are fascinating and research ongoing, which is the nature of real science. I hope that helps!!! -Mike". (Ah yes, scientists who think there were interglacials - like we have today - between all the separate geologically recent Pleistocene era 'ice ages' are just making unverifiable assumption and the Bible, cough cough, proves that their understanding of repeated, cyclical, ice age glaciations must be wrong ...)

Creation 'science' is EASY.

I could do it.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:06 am

I see there was more here too (plus claims that Matthews and co ignored/deleted some questions): https://www.facebook.com/AnswersMagazine

Matthews also commented: "Please also note that I am an editor, not a scientist, and read my comments for what they are intended to be, the thoughts of a writer working with scientists, not the work of the scientists themselves".

Meanwhile, from his and Snelling's original Answers Magazine article (my brief thoughts on it are shown too):
"Twice the Bible repeats that “the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth” (Genesis 11:8–9). Notice that this was the Lord’s doing. This supernatural event is essential for a proper understanding of human history. Yet without God’s written Word archaeologists would have no way of knowing this happened." If this was SUPERNATURAL, which goes way beyond the text, it did not happen. And if people were suddenly miraculously 'dumped' in eg Australia, they can't have taken kangaroos with them. (Fortunately for AiG Ken Ham offered a DIFFERENT 'solution' here - yep, it was all down to that 'rapid post-Flood ice age one again: http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/a ... -australia)
"Why did people wait so long after Babel to build cities and farm again? Problems included the tiny populations, the threat of skirmishes, and the changing climates. We also know from the fossil record that they faced constant flooding, dust storms, supervolcanoes, massive earthquakes, meteorites, and downpours of snow or rain on a scale never before seen." What complete and utter nonsense. I thought that - according to the Bible - Noah's Flood would have been worse than anything before or since it (though the Bible warns of dire events which apparently haven't yet occurred). Besides, what about Genesis 8: 21-22 (NIV) -
"The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. “As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease”". God made a covenant - confirmed by a rainbow - too. See here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Having just looked again at the recent article by GeoChristian (Kevin Nelstead) that I mentioned earlier, to see if he agreed with my comments above, I see that he has also posted a brand new blog post all about the discussions of 16.4.13 (second link)
http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2013/ ... the-bible/
http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2013/ ... -ice-ages/
I NOTE THAT ANSWERS MAGAZINE/MATTHEWS IGNORED A QUESTION ABOUT YELLOWSTONE ERUPTIONS AND THE 'ICE AGE'. A QUESTION WHICH I COULD NOT EVEN SEE EARLIER ON AT THE ANSWERS MAGAZINE FACEBOOK PAGE (ALL I COULD SEE WAS A REMINDER ABOUT A 'YELLOWSTONE QUESTION'). THOUGH THIS COULD BE EXPLAINED BY A TECHNICAL GLITCH IF ANSWERS MAGAZINE ARE TELLING THE TRUTH IN SAYING THAT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION WASN'T 'SEEN' BY THEM. OR MAYBE THIS WAS JUST A DELAYING TACTIC AND THEY QUICKLY DELETED IT?
THE QUESTION WAS RE-SUBMITTED BY NELSTEAD, AND MATTHEWS THEN ADDRESSED THE QUESTION. EXCEPT THAT HE FAILED TO ANSWER IT IN ANY WAY. HIS EXCUSES? AN INTIAL COMMENT THAT THE QUESTION WAS 'OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF THE ACTUAL ARTICLE' (COBBLERS) AND THAT ANDREW SNELLING WAS 'NOT PRESENT'. FOLLOWED SOON AFTER BY THE COMMENT THAT SUCH QUESTIONS ARE MATTERS OF 'ONGOING RESEARCH'. NEEDLESS TO SAY, KEVIN - AND ALSO A RICHARD AND A LANCE - ALL DISAGREED THAT KEVIN'S QUESTION WAS 'OUTSIDE' THE SCOPE OF THE ARTICLE.
CLEARLY MATTHEWS AND CO DID RECEIVE THE YELLOWSTONE QUESTION THE SECOND TIME - BUT THEY TOTALLY FAILED TO ANSWER IT (EVEN FAILING TO SAY "I'LL CHECK WITH ANDREW SNELLING AND GET BACK TO YOU").

Clearly the AiG position is "we know what must have happened but we cannot remotely show that the real science on this topic is incorrect - yet". And they accuse evolutionists and old Earth geologists of telling 'just-so stories'.

What frauds.

I'm attempting to flag this thread to Kevin, who is either an OEC or a theistic evolutionist.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:51 am

There's a bit more here:
https://www.facebook.com/events/5931731 ... 5890499048

Have also flagged this thread under this blog (awaiting moderation due to more than one link being included):
http://evoanth.wordpress.com/2013/03/25 ... d-mondays/
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:30 pm

Oh, look, the YECs have 'discovered' that if gold can be produced rapidly then it must all have been produced 'recently' too:
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v6/n ... tml#access
"Much of the world’s known gold has been derived from arrays of quartz veins. The veins formed during periods of mountain building that occurred as long as 3 billion years ago and were deposited by very large volumes of water that flowed along deep, seismically active faults. The veins formed under fluctuating pressures, during earthquakes, but the magnitude of the pressure fluctuations and their influence on mineral deposition is not known...
...We find that cavity expansion generates extreme reductions in pressure that cause the fluid that is trapped in the jog to expand to a very low-density vapour. Such flash vaporization of the fluid results in the rapid co-deposition of silica with a range of trace elements to form gold-enriched quartz veins. Flash vaporization continues as more fluid flows towards the newly expanded cavity, until the pressure in the cavity eventually recovers to ambient conditions. Multiple earthquakes progressively build economic-grade gold deposits."
http://www.icr.org/article/7407/
"A few faulting events won't produce commercial quantities of gold, but repeated slip-recovery cycles can explain more than 80 percent of the world's gold deposits. Numerous episodes of flash vaporization can produce deposits as large as 100 metric tons in a relatively short time.
Creation scientists have proposed a scenario wherein the fault slip-recovery method of gold deposition occurred rapidly and often in the recent past. This produced commercial-sized deposits in decades or hundreds of years. Rapid plate motion and tremendous tectonic activity during and after the Flood of Noah would have caused almost innumerable slip-recovery events to have deposited masses of gold along small fault jogs and larger superfaults. This recent Nature Geoscience study helps show how commercial gold—and even the elusive mother lode—can be deposited so fast that it easily fits within a biblical timeframe".

Genesis 4:22 (NIV): "Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron". He could have done with some help from Sir Isaac Newton (alchemist) to turn those base metals or perhaps alloys into gold before the Flood (and all those earthquakes not mentioned in the Bible) produced it naturally.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby Brian Jordan » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:40 pm

Quite a hypothesis. All that's missing is Noah's flood and rapid plate movements. Oh, and first some supernovae to provide the transmutation that "Creation Scientist" Sir Isaac Newton never managed,
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:24 pm

Referring back to my post at 12.14 am today, it rather looks like cowardice has won out at CMI:
http://creation.com/twice-as-wrong-and-more
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Am I missing something here (I suspect not)?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:21 pm

Email sent to the ICR:


Institute for Creation Research

http://www.icr.org/article/7408/
"But why select egg number as the key trait to define evolutionary
relationships?".
"The supposed evolution the Nature authors described rests squarely on
"cherry-picking" the egg trait and ignoring the five more relevant bird
traits noted in the very same report, in addition to other unmentioned
traits".

It is NOT clear to me - from this Abstract - that the researchers did
the thing that you are accusing them of, even if you take the word
'follicle' as equating to an unlaid egg and assume that the number of
follicles equalled the number of eggs that would have been laid.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 11985.html

Where/How did the paper - apparently in its Figure 3 which you
reproduce - 'cherry pick' an egg trait and give "the impression that as
reptiles evolved into birds, they produced fewer eggs"?

Of course you will NOT answer me. You NEVER EVER do.
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Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:23 pm

In fact my emails to cw@icr.org are no longer even getting delivered.
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Re: A 6,000 year old, and Biblical, Earth and universe?

Postby a_haworthroberts » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:26 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:http://www.101arguments.com/p/contributors.html
"Brendan Larsen is a keen surfer. He has a theology degree and is passionate about creation evangelism and contextualising the gospel."

http://www.creationconversations.com/pr ... haelLarsen


Sigh.
http://www.101arguments.com/2013/04/the ... s-and.html
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