A new attempt to get creationism into schools

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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Moon Fire » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:07 pm

I do worry some days about what is going to happen to the state of education in this country if these sorts of muppets get their hand on setting the curriculum.....because you know they'll damage more subjects than science.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby cathy » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:50 pm

do worry some days about what is going to happen to the state of education in this country if these sorts of muppets get their hand on setting the curriculum.....because you know they'll damage more subjects than science.
Though education isn't perfect and there are inequalities, it looks like we've spent years getting to where we are and what we've got. A national curriculum that ensures everyone gets the same opportunities, national guidelines that mean every school has to have policies for issues like bullying and child protection and some form of quality control measures in Ofsted and the league tables. I think that is pretty impressive. And in less than one year Gove has threatened the lot with his bizarre ideological waste of money.

Free schools are an absolute joke. They don't have to abide by the nat curriculum as far as I'm aware. They don't even have to employ qualified teachers, so ECC can get any old creationist loon and as long as they mention evolution they can say whatever they like about it. Including 'lets question this theory kiddies, just this one'. And they can start to do that long before they need to even touch on evolution as well. Deceive the kids long before they get to nat curriculum evolution, then undermine it a la Marc Surtees stuff.

Then you can introduce some creation 'science' and ID in RE just to press the point home. And Gove just won't have a clue.

because you know they'll damage more subjects than science.
They'll damage whole generations. We'll end up with the sort of no brainers we see in the US. We'll end up with people dying cos they no longer trust scientists, so why trust their vaccines or doctors and cos they'll look to their Pastors to save them instead. And eventually we'll get someone who really does take umbridge with scientists and their inconvenient tendencies to keep finding evidence for evolution and decides to stop lying and start killing for Jesus. And yes they'll extend it to other subjects like economics, history, pshe, citizenship, politics, general studies, geography. Art and dt may be safe.

Schools are to educate not indoctrinate-Gove really doesn't understand that.

Still they haven't got approval yet!!
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Michael » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:30 pm

And I guarantee that no child would be able to understand why the argument for the decay of the earth's magnetic field is wrong and dishonest
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby marcsurtees » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:18 pm

cathy wrote:Well if extremists are allowed to open schools there is no reason at all to block submissions from Al Quedo. This is the most disgusting waste of taxpayers money I have ever come across. I'm writing to Gove. It is an absolute disgrace and of course as a free school is free to do as it wishes without any quality control at all. Next I think we should have an astrology school.


I am a little puzzled.

It seems that free schools will be inspected, see:

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/lea ... lity/#faq1

Has the D of E done a U turn?
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby GrumpyBob » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:23 pm

Frankly, I believe that allowing the education of children to fall into the hands of the likes of Everyday Champions is tantamount to sanctioning child abuse. If parents wish their children to be taught bizarre interpretations of ancient myths, that's one thing, but to fund (from the public purse) such a den of misinformation is nothing short of despicable.

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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Michael » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:21 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
cathy wrote:Well if extremists are allowed to open schools there is no reason at all to block submissions from Al Quedo. This is the most disgusting waste of taxpayers money I have ever come across. I'm writing to Gove. It is an absolute disgrace and of course as a free school is free to do as it wishes without any quality control at all. Next I think we should have an astrology school.


I am a little puzzled.

It seems that free schools will be inspected, see:

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/lea ... lity/#faq1

Has the D of E done a U turn?


Having witnessed a dozen OFSTED inspection as a governor I have little confidence in them
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby marcsurtees » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:12 pm

cathy wrote:If you want just one example of their inability to admit they could ever be wrong-the CMI prayer letter was clearly and obviously deceitful, Marc could have agreed on that fact alone without making any dent at all on his creation 'science' stuff, or making any concessions at all to evolution. But he could still not admit creationists could ever be anything but infallible.


I think that you should be more careful. My reaction to the CMI letter was a little more nuanced than that.

And for the record let me say that, "creationist can be wrong and are most certianly fallible.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Moon Fire » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:02 pm

cathy wrote:
I do worry some days about what is going to happen to the state of education in this country if these sorts of muppets get their hand on setting the curriculum.....because you know they'll damage more subjects than science.


Though education isn't perfect and there are inequalities, it looks like we've spent years getting to where we are and what we've got. A national curriculum that ensures everyone gets the same opportunities, national guidelines that mean every school has to have policies for issues like bullying and child protection and some form of quality control measures in Ofsted and the league tables. I think that is pretty impressive. And in less than one year Gove has threatened the lot with his bizarre ideological waste of money.

Free schools are an absolute joke. They don't have to abide by the nat curriculum as far as I'm aware. They don't even have to employ qualified teachers, so ECC can get any old creationist loon and as long as they mention evolution they can say whatever they like about it. Including 'lets question this theory kiddies, just this one'. And they can start to do that long before they need to even touch on evolution as well. Deceive the kids long before they get to nat curriculum evolution, then undermine it a la Marc Surtees stuff.

Then you can introduce some creation 'science' and ID in RE just to press the point home. And Gove just won't have a clue.

because you know they'll damage more subjects than science.


They'll damage whole generations. We'll end up with the sort of no brainers we see in the US. We'll end up with people dying cos they no longer trust scientists, so why trust their vaccines or doctors and cos they'll look to their Pastors to save them instead. And eventually we'll get someone who really does take umbridge with scientists and their inconvenient tendencies to keep finding evidence for evolution and decides to stop lying and start killing for Jesus. And yes they'll extend it to other subjects like economics, history, pshe, citizenship, politics, general studies, geography. Art and dt may be safe.

Schools are to educate not indoctrinate-Gove really doesn't understand that.

Still they haven't got approval yet!!



The free schools thing is something that concerns me, I'm also not happy with the idea of academies either.

And you are right about the damage they'ed cause to the generations, at least if kids are bing fed creationism at home or in their churches we've got schools were we can try and reach them. Saying that there are some faith schools that might teach it but the kids and the teacher hold on to that belief.

But yeah, all you need to do is watch what has happened with the Texas School Board in recent years to see what worries me.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:54 pm

GrumpyBob wrote:Frankly, I believe that allowing the education of children to fall into the hands of the likes of Everyday Champions is tantamount to sanctioning child abuse. If parents wish their children to be taught bizarre interpretations of ancient myths, that's one thing, but to fund (from the public purse) such a den of misinformation is nothing short of despicable.
It's not just a question of funding the deception of a few nutters' children. Roger, IIRC, has calculated that Everyday Champions will be teaching about 50 such yet it will hold about 600 children. So 550 children of normal parents will find themselves there as well, if EC's claims of a local shortage of places are correct.
Situation replicated, to a greater or less degree, everywhere there is a religiously or politically motivated "free" school.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby GrumpyBob » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:35 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
GrumpyBob wrote:Frankly, I believe that allowing the education of children to fall into the hands of the likes of Everyday Champions is tantamount to sanctioning child abuse. If parents wish their children to be taught bizarre interpretations of ancient myths, that's one thing, but to fund (from the public purse) such a den of misinformation is nothing short of despicable.
It's not just a question of funding the deception of a few nutters' children. Roger, IIRC, has calculated that Everyday Champions will be teaching about 50 such yet it will hold about 600 children. So 550 children of normal parents will find themselves there as well, if EC's claims of a local shortage of places are correct.
Situation replicated, to a greater or less degree, everywhere there is a religiously or politically motivated "free" school.


Brian, perhaps I was just a bit inarticulate, but that's the point I was making...or at least trying to make.

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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby cathy » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:13 am

It's not just a question of funding the deception of a few nutters' children. Roger, IIRC, has calculated that Everyday Champions will be teaching about 50 such yet it will hold about 600 children. So 550 children of normal parents will find themselves there as well, if EC's claims of a local shortage of places are correct.
Situation replicated, to a greater or less degree, everywhere there is a religiously or politically motivated "free" school.
ECC reckon they have 825 parents who would definitely use it and about 280 possibles. Though that is based on their questionairres.

And if, as they are saying (though they are creationists so who knows), there is a shortage of places in popular schools children will be placed in schools that their parents haven't even put on their preference forms. I see it here a lot. Parents using up all the places on their preference forms for hugely oversubscribed schools which they have no chance of meeting the admissions criteria for and then ending up in the real sink schools with surplus places. so even if it opens and proves less popular kids will still be condemned to go there.

Then there is the very real problem that the fact that a lot of faith schools (the normal ones that are not run by fundies and have no problem with science) are academically good has coloured peoples perceptions of faith schools in general. Basically the fact they have a good reputation in the publics' minds will colour their perception of all faith schools (and reading between the lines on the various reports I've got the impression there might already be a popular CofE school there).

Not everyone has the time to plough through Ofsteds, the league tables need careful reading and it takes a hell of a lot of exposure to creationist lies to understand the issues. So many may choose ECC without having the slightest inkling what it is about.

The fact that it has said it will NOT be teaching creationism and ID in science will reassure many who simply do not have a clue what a loaded statement 'we will teach evolution as a theory' means. Nor will they really have a clue if they hear that teaching creationism will take place in RE that that won't mean the normal and honest Christian creation story but the teaching of dishonest creation 'science', the claim it has a scientific validity and possibly a few claims about the imaginary flaws in evolution or the imagined controversy. Even if they employ decent science teachers I bet they'll have the full fundie nutter lot on board for RE.

It will take a long while for any inadequacies to feed through. If its first intake is year 7 and 8-you've got three years before the first lot of gcse results and appearance on the league tables.

The only skill creationists and fundies have in abundance is the ability to tell a good lie and put on a good show. Very useful skills when doing a potential parents open evening. Especially when the school hasn't yet got a good or bad reputation. Without that most parents will decide based on the presentations.

Two and a bit years ago I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a creationist fundie den of iniquity church or a brilliantly run, honest and good Church of England one. I wouldn't have been able to recognise the huge difference between Michael and Marcs Pastor on the surface. Thats why I let my child go to a creationist den of liars by mistake!! I'm not uncommon. People know about fundamentalist Islam but haven't a clue about fundamentalist Christianity or that it is just as bad.

It's not just a question of funding the deception of a few nutters' children. Roger, IIRC, has calculated that Everyday Champions will be teaching about 50
And though parents have the right to teach their children whatever strange beliefs they like at home-those children also have as much right to learn real science as mine have. The state should not fund the parents right to remove the right of their child to an education. Parents who wish to indoctrinate and remove the rights of their children should do so themselves or out of their own purses. The state is not their to further the lunatic beliefs of those indoctrinated by immoral creationists.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby cathy » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:28 am

think that you should be more careful. My reaction to the CMI letter was a little more nuanced than that.

No Marc I understood your nuances completely. You tried to justify their attempts to mislead by saying basically that removing the right to present creation 'science' was effectively removing their right to meaningfully teach creationism full stop. Hence they were not lying when they removed the scientific validity comment from their prayer letter, as they believed this was an attack on the effective teaching of creationism. To whit to teach creationism really effectively you need to lie, remove the right to lie you remove the right to teach it.

Your nuancing argument did not work. I saw it for what it was-an attempt to protect your creationist buddies from justified criticism. You know as well as I do that the most important words in that petitions were the scientific validity-subtle nuancing changed the whole meaning.You and CMI also know that the bulk of their supporters are not the brightest bunnies in the bunny bunch and would read it as written. It read as an attempt to prevent the teaching of creationism full stop. It clearly wasn't.

The letter/petition does not call for the prevention of creationism teaching just the prevention of dishonest claims it has scientific validity. If CMI had any morals they would have made that crystal clear! Instead they chose judicious editing to change the meaning. And you chose judicious wording to suggest they weren't really dishonest. They were and so were you.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Moon Fire » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:40 am

Cathy's reply to mark has emphasised a key difference between science and creationism. Science is capable of rolling with the critisim, in fact science needs it. Scientists won't know that their is faulty without it and science works by finding the faults and correcting them (the faults being in our explanations of what the data/evidence shows). Creationism and creationists can't hack critisism because it show the holes in their arguements, and even if another creationists cakes a critical comment it's only critical to a point as it misses the obvious fact that theres no evidence to support creationism.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby marcsurtees » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:38 pm

Moon Fire wrote:Cathy's reply to mark has emphasised a key difference between science and creationism. Science is capable of rolling with the critisim, in fact science needs it. Scientists won't know that their is faulty without it and science works by finding the faults and correcting them (the faults being in our explanations of what the data/evidence shows). Creationism and creationists can't hack critisism because it show the holes in their arguements, and even if another creationists cakes a critical comment it's only critical to a point as it misses the obvious fact that theres no evidence to support creationism.


Have you ever sat in a scientific meeting and seen the reaction of a scientist (who remember are human) whose work is criticised!?
People defend their pet theories with the same energy whether they are creationist or evolutionist.
And you conveniently forget that evolution can't be wrong because it is a fact.
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Re: A new attempt to get creationism into schools

Postby Michael » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:42 pm

Marc

You forget that Creationism can't be right becuase it is a lie
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