The next phase for creationists in the UK?

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Postby a_haworthroberts » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:03 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... on-climate
In the apparent words of CMI, as shown on their facebook page: "Another dissenter from the evolutionary faith punished for his faith, even though he is one of his country's top scientists:
Sa'ar dismisses chief scientist for questioning evolution:
Gavriel Avital sparked controversy with statements over creationism and global warming.
...Anyone now denying censorship and persecution of evolution-dissenters will be treated like Holocaust-deniers".
http://www.facebook.com/creationnewsl

As usual, CMI embellish things in their bid to try to 'prove' some kind of conspiracy. Why don't they just claim that "anyone dissenting from evolution will be treated like a Holocaust-denier"? Why all the tosh about people being discriminated against because they deny any censorship or persecution of evolution-dissenters? (Or could it be a careless typo?)
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:10 am

a_haworthroberts wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/oct/06/israel-scientist-sacked-evolution-climate
In the apparent words of CMI, as shown on their facebook page: "Another dissenter from the evolutionary faith punished for his faith, even though he is one of his country's top scientists:
Sa'ar dismisses chief scientist for questioning evolution:
Gavriel Avital sparked controversy with statements over creationism and global warming.
...Anyone now denying censorship and persecution of evolution-dissenters will be treated like Holocaust-deniers".
http://www.facebook.com/creationnewsl

As usual, CMI embellish things in their bid to try to 'prove' some kind of conspiracy. Why don't they just claim that "anyone dissenting from evolution will be treated like a Holocaust-denier"? Why all the tosh about people being discriminated against because they deny any censorship or persecution of evolution-dissenters? (Or could it be a careless typo?)


It's the martyrdom complex at work again. Wah, wah, wah, wah, the Jews are being beastly to the Jews and aren't we being hard done to, wah, wah, wah. If I were a Jew, I'd tell 'em to go fuck themselves. Pillochs.

With so many creationists around, it's a pity lions are nowadays a rare species. ;-)

[Another excuse for the fundies to go wah, wah, wah about the beastly people at the BCSE.]
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Postby cathy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:09 pm

Ah poor little Avital, I can smell burning martyr from here. When are these people going to realise that they get removed from jobs and villified because they're talking utter b@@@@@ks. I'm sure I'd get sacked if I denied the existence of electrons or suddenly decieded that copper sulfate came from the magic salt fairy! If he wants to be a chief scientist he has to accept science-thats just the way it is.
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Postby Michael » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:20 pm

cathy wrote:Ah poor little Avital, I can smell burning martyr from here. When are these people going to realise that they get removed from jobs and villified because they're talking utter b@@@@@ks. I'm sure I'd get sacked if I denied the existence of electrons or suddenly decieded that copper sulfate came from the magic salt fairy! If he wants to be a chief scientist he has to accept science-thats just the way it is.


But Cathy it is your RIGHT to beleive whatever you want and it is wrong for any to discriminate against you.

End of story
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Postby cathy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:15 pm

Oh yes. How could I have forgotten Mr Fullers gems of wisdom. I choose to believe that all organic chemistry is the work of an intelligent (hence not me) carbon fairy. Thanks Michael.
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Glasgow's new Centre for Adam and Eve

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:07 pm

Never mind the slight inaccuracies in the text, feel the headline
Would you Adam and Eve it? Top scientists tell Scottish pupils: the Bible is true
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/would-you-adam-and-eve-it-top-scientists-tell-scottish-pupils-the-bible-is-true-1.1060545
"PPSIMMONS is an amorphous mass of stupid" - Rationalwiki
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Postby a_haworthroberts » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:19 pm

That Sunday Herald article - quoting Paul Braterman - was also posted at the BBC Religion message board earlier today.

PS - NOTE ADDED SOME HOURS' LATER:
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbe ... ganiz.html

I quite like this comment posted by BillB on this page about the UKC4ID:
"In one sense demanding that Intelligent Design be taught as a competing scientific theory in schools is like trying to cheat at exams - It takes a lot of work, experimentation, observation and testing to develop a robust theoretical framework to scientifically explain parts of the natural world, and then it has to be accepted by the wider peer community. Only then, after it has passed many tests, does it start to get taught in science classes in school.

ID has yet to pass any of these tests so for it to claim the mantle of competing theory to evolution is to claim status it has not earned.

Put it another way, ID is demanding a driving license, but hasn't passed the driving test - in fact it tends to either refuse to take the test, or claim that the test is unfair and should be re-written to suit their unusual driving style."
Last edited by a_haworthroberts on Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:54 pm

a_haworthroberts wrote:That Sunday Herald article - quoting Paul Braterman - was also posted at the BBC Religion message board earlier today.
Not very good at staying on topic, are they? A shame, when the third poster was able to quote Noble as saying
"If you insist that intelligent causation is to be excluded in the study of origins then you are teaching materialist philosophy, not science."
and provide a link too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ign-school
A pity that nobody other than the OP took up C4ID's religious/creationist underpinning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/F22 ... =0&show=20
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Postby cathy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:42 pm

Are nutty Noble and c4id also going to be able to wheedle their way into university christian unions and did I read here somewhere that creationists had already infiltrated them? I only ask cos of the recent stuff about UCL and abdulmuthallab (spelling dodgy-the unsucessful pants bomber) and the fact he could have been radicalised by their islamic society (or used it to radicalise others). UCl were on radio 5 on fri defending themselves against claims they should have checked their islamic societies. I thought the accusations were a bit rich when you have people like Fuller and McIntosh in actual academic positions which they could easily abuse for creationist purposes.

How on earth could Noble study genetics and yet be a creationist (sorry IDer) an why on earth does he think children should be taught his religious views in science?
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:49 pm

cathy wrote:How on earth could Noble study genetics and yet be a creationist (sorry IDer) an why on earth does he think children should be taught his religious views in science?
It's important to note that AFAIK he (Nevin, that is, not Noble - who is a chemist) is a medical geneticist concerned with the effects of genes as they exist. Not an evolution-science type geneticist concerned with how the existent genes came about. As for your second question, most of the creationists feel that they are obliged to save souls and are trying to do it by propagating their religious views.
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Postby marcsurtees » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:33 am

cathy wrote:How on earth could Noble study genetics and yet be a creationist (sorry IDer) an why on earth does he think children should be taught his religious views in science?


Because of the evidence!
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:46 am

marcsurtees wrote:
cathy wrote:How on earth could Noble study genetics and yet be a creationist (sorry IDer) an why on earth does he think children should be taught his religious views in science?


Because of the evidence!


Nah. It's because of his "paradigm" that everyone's religion should be taken into account at every twist and turn in science - well, everyone except those that don't hold to his particular obscure set of beliefs and sect. Hasn't figured ourt that science (and all but about 250 people) don't give a stuff about his religious opinions, or mine, or anyone elses. Why should they Marc? Nobody is "right" about religion. Nobody is knowledgable about religion, not Richard Dawkins, not Marc Surtees, not Roger Stanyard, not anyone.
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Postby Michael » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:15 am

I felt the weakness of Marc's position as I has a long chat with Dr Todd Wood in his room at Bryan College. He seemed totally reasonable as he is very widely read and about to use an annotated version of the Origin on a course on DArwin , yet pursuing his studies on baraminology an absurd idea

I also went round all the sites in Dayton and my wife took a picture of me in the accused's dock in the courtroom

A fascinating day
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Postby Peter Henderson » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:23 am

Brian Jordan wrote:
cathy wrote:How on earth could Noble study genetics and yet be a creationist (sorry IDer) an why on earth does he think children should be taught his religious views in science?
It's important to note that AFAIK he (Nevin, that is, not Noble - who is a chemist) is a medical geneticist concerned with the effects of genes as they exist. Not an evolution-science type geneticist concerned with how the existent genes came about. As for your second question, most of the creationists feel that they are obliged to save souls and are trying to do it by propagating their religious views.


Nevin is a local preacher at the Crescent church Brian. You're also quite correct in that he's a geneticist, and a well respected one at that. He's apparently had over 200 papers published in mainstream (evolutionary) science journals so he clearly understands the science.

He was based at Belfast City Hospital and obviously had quite a lot of contact with the public. In his field of work he's probably came across some fairly heart rendering moments with parents. I've heard him speak on the subject of abortion for example, and he does seem to take a more liberal line than most evangelicals, seeing the option as the lesser of two evils under certain circumstances.

I've always regarded Prof Nevin as a very gracious and understanding man so I'm surprised he's come out on the side of McIntosh (who I think is somewhat beligerant and rude). I'm sure I heard him (Prof Nevin) state that as long as a Christian believed that God created, that was all that mattered. Not the age of the Earth etc., although he then repeated some nonense from Tas Walker on oil formation and the fact that it can happen quickly.

I strongly suspect he's a YEC that respects other Christians who have different views on the issue, rather than regarding them as compromisers.
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Postby Roger Stanyard » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:10 am

Peter Henderson wrote:Nevin is a local preacher at the Crescent church Brian. You're also quite correct in that he's a geneticist, and a well respected one at that. He's apparently had over 200 papers published in mainstream (evolutionary) science journals so he clearly understands the science.

He was based at Belfast City Hospital and obviously had quite a lot of contact with the public. In his field of work he's probably came across some fairly heart rendering moments with parents. I've heard him speak on the subject of abortion for example, and he does seem to take a more liberal line than most evangelicals, seeing the option as the lesser of two evils under certain circumstances.

I've always regarded Prof Nevin as a very gracious and understanding man so I'm surprised he's come out on the side of McIntosh (who I think is somewhat beligerant and rude). I'm sure I heard him (Prof Nevin) state that as long as a Christian believed that God created, that was all that mattered. Not the age of the Earth etc., although he then repeated some nonense from Tas Walker on oil formation and the fact that it can happen quickly.

I strongly suspect he's a YEC that respects other Christians who have different views on the issue, rather than regarding them as compromisers.


From what you say, Peter, I get theimpression that Nevin is naive. He's got a liberal streak but has surrounded and associated himself with illiberal fundamentalists. He doesn't sem to understand that he is playing with fire. He's politicising the religious opinions of extremists and he's attacking mainstream religion.
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