The next phase for creationists in the UK?

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The next phase for creationists in the UK?

Postby psiloiordinary » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:54 am

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Re: The next phase for creationists in the UK?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:37 am

psiloiordinary wrote:http://www.c4id.org.uk/


Oit of Northern Ireland?

I note the President is Norman Nevin. I vaguely recall Alsistar Noble but have no idea who Dr David Galloway is. Nevin, of course, appears to have backed YECism before turning away.

Well, the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, Glasgow, Scotland now appears to have no credibility whatsovere.

What's the betting that Noble and Galloway are practising members of Calvinistic churches?
Last edited by Roger Stanyard on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby psiloiordinary » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:13 pm

If wonder if you can pay them a visit Paul?
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Postby tubataxidriver » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:31 pm

Whois listing:

Domain name: c4id.org.uk
Registrant: Peter Loose
Registrant type: UK Individual
Registrant's address: The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their address omitted from the WHOIS service.
Registrar: 1 & 1 Internet AG [Tag = SCHLUND]
Relevant dates:
Registered on: 14-Sep-2010
Renewal date: 14-Sep-2012
Last updated: 14-Sep-2010
Registration status:
Registration request being processed.
Name servers:
ns67.1and1.co.uk
ns68.1and1.co.uk

Peter Loose anyone?
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Postby Paul Braterman » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:48 pm

I watched Alistair Noble's presentation. It could have been written (perhaps it was written) by Stephen Meyer. All the usual tricks; muddling questions of origin with questions of structure, claiming that complex systems can only operate in their final form, talking about Darwinism when they mean evolutionary biology (how would Doctor Noble have responded students who insisted on talking about Daltonism when they meant chemistry?), reference to an unnamed scientific opposition to evolution, claiming that mainstream science rejects Intelligent Design of philosophical grounds (when in fact it is rejected because it is scientifically vacuous, or else scientifically mistaken), claiming that the only way we know for symbolically meaningful pattern to arise is ballet operation of an intelligence.

But if people like Doctor Galloway choose to be associated with this kind of thing, and in doing so refer to honours and offices that they legitimately hold, I didn't see what we can or even should do about it, apart from, obviously, attempting to minimise their influence.
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:51 pm

tubataxidriver wrote:Whois listing:

Domain name: c4id.org.uk
Registrant: Peter Loose

Peter Loose anyone?
No idea who he is, but he seems to have form
somebody called Peter Loose wrote:This is a plea for Science that is an unstifled investigation that seeks out the truth – the evidence, wherever it leads - and doesn’t decide purely on a-priori grounds that certain classes of answer are not permitted and so seek to preserve homage to Darwin – a kind of ‘blasphemy law’. True science must be set free from such dogma.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/01/norman_nevin_defends_truth_in_1.html Comment 34
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:14 pm

This could be the same, or a different, Peter Loose:

Peter is committed to facilitating world-class Christian Apologetics to Churches and the wider sceptical community. A Grandpa, married to Faith for over 40 years, they have four married Christian ‘children’, who naturally did “come first”!

Trained in Engineering with the BBC in the 60s, he then established international technology businesses, later sold, and retired in his 40s to concentrate on Christian ministry.

A member of the Elim Church National Management Board and advises its Pension Fund investments: a Director of Shaftesbury Housing: Chairman of Ashley Homes Care delivery until 2004.

Peter and Faith lead Chelmsford Crusaders (their home town) among ‘teenagers plus’ from diverse backgrounds. He is a passionate trustee of their town-wide supported Christian Ministry to Secondary Schools.
http://www.uccf.org.uk/about-us/our-tea ... eter-loose - ISTR UCCF has cropped up here before, if only with a query. Anyway, on digging a little further:
As well as RE and philosophy courses taking advantage of this service, general studies, citizenship and science departments have also benefited from our team of experienced specialists.
Key Stage 3

* Religion versus Science: are they in conflict?
* Creation and theistic evolution explored.
* What is “Intelligent Design”? <snip>
http://www.symchelmsford.org/lessons.html That's Chelmsford Schools and Youth Mission.
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:50 pm

Do they think people were born yesterday?
c4id.com wrote:6. Are there established scholars in the scientific community who support intelligent design theory?

Yes. Intelligent design theory is supported by professors, doctoral scientists, researchers and theorists at universities, colleges, and research institutes around the world. These include in the UK: Norman Nevin, professor emeritus of medical genetics at Queen's University and an advisor to the government on gene therapies; Andy MacIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds; Stuart Burgess, professor of design and nature and head of mechanical engineering at Bristol University; Geoff Barnard, visiting senior research scientist in the department of veterinary medicine, University of Cambridge; Derek Linkens, professor and dean emeritus, department of automatic control and systems engineering, University of Sheffield (elected a Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering for his research on biological systems modelling and control); Steve Taylor, reader in micro and nano technology at the University of Liverpool; Russell Healey, lecturer in the engineering department at Cambridge University; science and education consultant Arthur Jones, who is a member of the Institute of Biology and holds a PhD from Birmingham University for research on the diversification of cichlid fish. In America, intelligent design theorists include biochemist Michael Behe at Lehigh University; microbiologist Scott Minnich at the University of Idaho; biologist Paul Chien at the University of San Francisco; emeritus biologist Dean Kenyon at San Francisco State University; quantum chemist Henry Schaefer at the University of Georgia; mathematician William Dembski, and philosopher of science Stephen Meyer.
(my bold) Or are they just unable to keep their mouths shut?
http://www.c4id.org.uk/index.php?option ... &Itemid=31
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Postby Michael » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:34 pm

AFAIK Peter Loose is a YEC but then YECs often use ID as a cover.

He lives down south and welcomed Snelling on a visit in c2005

c4id seems not to be overt YEC but I dont trust it
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Re: The next phase for creationists in the UK?

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:45 pm

Roger Stanyard wrote:What's the betting that Noble and Galloway are practising members of Calvinistic churches?
Well, it turns out (had to use Bing, Google let me down) that Galloway has a personal web site. http://www.davidgalloway.co.uk/Index2.html (don't go straight via .co.uk - you'll get the traditional creationist Flash experience.He even says "Every self respecting site needs Flash"!) He appears to be a member of the Lennox Evangelical Church, Dumbarton and is clearly the committed Christian type of CDesign Proponentsist - he links to AIG! He also links to a site All About God which has a page about science - well, creationism and evolution - http://www.allaboutgod.com/science.htm He also links to Ravi Zacharias, who seems to be a rather weird sort of Christian who has problems with evolution
In some discussion Zacharias appropriates to scientific matters, he anwsers the question of human origin. He has voiced skepticism over what he believes to be inadequate empirical evidence in the fossil records for an honest endorsement of the theory of evolution. He also questions the claim that evolution is compatible with the second law of thermodynamics, quoting the two to be inconsistent and irreconcilable. This stems from the belief that the second law of thermodynamics dictates that all closed systems in the universe will, unless acted upon by some external influence, tend to disorder. This notion, says Zacharias, does not conform to the key tenets of evolution, which postulate a marked increase in the order of biological life.[29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
Perhaps there's something on his site for the experts to decide whether he's a Calvinist, but I've had enough for now.
Last edited by Brian Jordan on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I'm moving this topic.

Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:31 pm

While everyone can see this discussion, not everyone can reply while it's on News and Links. I'm moving it to Free for All in the hope that more people can help throw light on this new creationist venture and its main players.
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Postby Brian Jordan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:20 pm

It IS the Chelmsford Peter Loose. I forgot the .uk and found that c4id.org exists but is inaccessible like the TiS site used to be. Registered to a Peter Loose of Chelmsford. Are they just covering their options or planning bigger things, I wonder?
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Re: The next phase for creationists in the UK?

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:49 am

Brian Jordan wrote:Well, it turns out (had to use Bing, Google let me down) that Galloway has a personal web site. http://www.davidgalloway.co.uk/Index2.html (don't go straight via .co.uk - you'll get the traditional creationist Flash experience.He even says "Every self respecting site needs Flash"!) He appears to be a member of the Lennox Evangelical Church, Dumbarton and is clearly the committed Christian type of CDesign Proponentsist - he links to AIG! He also links to a site All About God which has a page about science - well, creationism and evolution - http://www.allaboutgod.com/science.htm He also links to Ravi Zacharias, who seems to be a rather weird sort of Christian who has problems with evolution In some discussion Zacharias appropriates to scientific matters, he anwsers the question of human origin. He has voiced skepticism over what he believes to be inadequate empirical evidence in the fossil records for an honest endorsement of the theory of evolution. He also questions the claim that evolution is compatible with the second law of thermodynamics, quoting the two to be inconsistent and irreconcilable. This stems from the belief that the second law of thermodynamics dictates that all closed systems in the universe will, unless acted upon by some external influence, tend to disorder. This notion, says Zacharias, does not conform to the key tenets of evolution, which postulate a marked increase in the order of biological life.[29]


Galloway admits he has a worldview. As I have long pointed out the term worldview is nothing more that a substutute for ideology and usually contains a mish mash of conflicting and ill thought out ideas (the same that normal people hold except we admit it). It's almost always used by people with deeply conservative/right wing views.
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Postby Kekerusey » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:19 pm

I don't really have a problem with theists who claim the universe was started by a god, I don't personally think it's true, but it doesn't offend me in the way YEC's offend me (which they do on just about every intellectual level).

I did look around the site a little ... Latham's "Was there a cause of the universe" cites philosopher William Lane Craig in the following manner:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.


And as things go that's not bad EXCEPT I'd rephrase the first argument to say everything we understand so far (to have a beginning) has a cause which necessarily modifies point 3 to become, "we there assume the universe to have a cause (to be explicable)".

Personally I do think the universe will one day be explained, I think something along the lines of M-Theory will explain it ... the problem with that, of course, is it just pushes the assumed creation point "further back" :)

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Postby SamReno » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:01 pm

This is just REALLY disingenuous:

"7. Isn’t intelligent design just an American phenomenon?
... Italian cognitive scientist Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini, who started his academic career as a biophysicist and molecular biologist and is now a professor of cognitive science at the University of Arizona, has co-written ‘What Darwin Got Wrong’ (Profile Books, 2010) with Jerry Fodor, a professor of philosophy and cognitive science at Rutgers University. "


While Fodor and Palmarini's central thesis is flawed and disputed by many (Block, Kitcher, Okasha, Richards, Pigliucci...) they most certainly do not advocate anything close to intelligent design. They are atheists, materialists, and their challenge to natural selection is more about focusing on endogenous variables and internal constraints rather than adaptation, they by no means advocate any kind of teleology, infact they accuse natural selectionists of this! Typical lying creationists!
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