Tories would ban creationism teaching!

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Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby allybalder » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:50 pm

Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."
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Re: Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby Michael » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:04 pm

allybalder wrote:Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."


will they do it in Vardy schools then?
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Postby allybalder » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:27 pm

Presumably he means all schools - I'm not a Tory!
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Re: Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby Roger Stanyard » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:51 pm

allybalder wrote:Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."


I'll stick my neck out and suggest that the creationists/fundamentalists will be lobbying against this over coming months. The public will be the last to known.

Moreover, I don't take politicians at face value. The Financial Times magazine on Saturday had a long report on how evangelicals were influencing Tory Party policies on such areas as abortion and tax relief for married couples. They are going the same way as American fundamentalists.
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Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:48 pm

will they do it in Vardy schools then?


Or here even:

http://www.christianschoolstrust.co.uk/ ... y/image/67
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Re: Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby marcsurtees » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:47 pm

allybalder wrote:Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."


So now democracy means that everyone has to believe the same things!
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Postby Kekerusey » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:41 pm

I have to say I am toying with the idea of asking the various candidates in my ward what their stance is on the teaching of science in science classes and just voting for the one that gives the best answer no matter the party (though there would have to be limits such as on the BNP ... no way on hell I'm voting for them). Maybe the Tories will get my vote yet!

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Re: Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby Peter Henderson » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:48 pm

marcsurtees wrote:
allybalder wrote:Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."


So now democracy means that everyone has to believe the same things!


But they'll not get employment in science unless they have evolutionary science qualifications Marc. You of all people should know this. Just like I could not have had a reasonable career in chemistry without qualifications in chemistry. In my day it was either a degree in chemistry, or an HNC with several years experience. Both were counted as the same in job applications. I would imagine it would be the same in zoology. It's got nothing to do with democracy.

Maybe the Tories will get my vote yet!


No chance here, even if I can't vote either Lib Dem or Labour.
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Postby Michael » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:26 pm

The BNP will be the most creationist .

[part of this post has been removed by a moderator]

Dont forget that creationist theology was behind both apartheid and the deep south. There seems to be a link
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Postby BalbKubrox » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:14 am

So now democracy means that everyone has to believe the same things!


Sleight of hand again.

Nobody's talking about stopping people believing any bloody nonsense they please: what's at issue here is using the state-funded school system to propagate beliefs which are either rabidly illiberal and violently anti-democratic (cf. those of Al-Muhajaroun, who I think were Michael Gove's principal target here) or crazily at variance with what most people would regard as science (cf. Scientology, Creationism, Flat-Earthism, astrology, etc.).

If you want to teach your kids - if you have any, that is, or ever will - that the Earth and everything on it were created ex nihilo in the space of 120 hours 6,006 years ago then you're perfectly at liberty to do so, and all I can say is: poor kids. But you're certainly not going to be doing it with my tax money.

I have to say I am toying with the idea of asking the various candidates in my ward what their stance is on the teaching of science in science classes and just voting for the one that gives the best answer no matter the party


I've found that a very good way of dealing with political canvassers is to let them ramble on a bit, then stop them and say, "Do you mind if I ask you a question?" Then ask them "What is your party's position on the current whereabouts of Noah's Ark?." This usually brings the conversation to a close pretty sharpish.
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Re: Tories would ban creationism teaching!

Postby Roger Stanyard » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:05 am

marcsurtees wrote:
allybalder wrote:Michael Gove MP told BBC1's Andrew Marr programme on Sunday morning (14 February) that "fundamentalist groups" who taught in a way that undermined "democratic values" would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down.

He said the inspection regime would be crucial in challenging such schools.

"To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism" he said. "And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."


So now democracy means that everyone has to believe the same things!


The fundie martyrdom complex at work!

Good science is not determined by democratic vote. So, if you want cretinism taught in schools, show us the scientific theory of creationism and how it can be tested with the scientific method.

yawns and waits forever.
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Moderator's Note re BNP

Postby Brian Jordan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:46 pm

I have edited one post above and removed two replies which related only to the portion removed. This is because of references to supposed membership of the British National Party. While this is a legal political party, it is impossible to know who - apart from those publicly associated with it - are members and not everyone is happy to be associated with the organisation. Lists leaked to the Internet have been variously claimed to be inaccurate or forged.

Would posters please remember that ad hominem arguments are unlikely to be helpful.
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Postby jon_12091 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:11 pm

Having seen the Andrew Marr interview I heard nothing that differs from the current inspection regime, which in no way can challenges the institution that says 'this what we have to teach, but this is what we believe to be true'. Whether that be the veracity of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or the literal reading of any creation myth.

While it appears that those tory Christians influencing policy clearly don't have carte blanche, they clearly have influence, and one wonders what they will do once they've finished with 'family values'. The sudden appearance of a number of climate change sceptics in Tory ranks (as bad as creationists IMO), while perhaps not entirely suprising, does lead one to wonder weather some unholy minority alliance may cause problems.
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